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TYLER

Newsvine Director of Community.
Articles Posted: 49  Links Seeded: 660
Member Since: 9/2008  Last Seen: 5/18/2012

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Blackface Is Particularly Unacceptable On Halloween

Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:42 PM EST
halloween, blackface, al-jolson
By tyler

An Al Jolson record I copped in Baltimore. It's aiight.

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Contextual Prefacing: I know, this is at least a month and a half late, but it was brought up over here and I figured I'd publish it here for some context, and, if auto-importing it to Facebook was any indication, some lively discussion. Originally published at my blog on November 4.

...

A friend of a friend dressed in blackface for Halloween. Here's why that's not okay.

A quick review: blackface was used by whites to disseminate crude stereotypes of black people that persist to this day. Catch up here. Originating in the early nineteenth century, the practice continued deep into the 20th century. Al Jolson sold a whole lot of records.

The above pictured record was pressed in 1973. And this guy wasn't alone in dressing in blackface for Halloween. But that's no excuse.

In the image, which you can see here, the guy's wearing an oversized hoodie and a gold chain. It's reasonable to interpret this costume as a stereotype of a black man. [It's taking a mature restraint and a late hour to keep me from extrapolating the alternate Yankees fitted into a comparison tangent about gangsta rap vis-a-vis the 'buck' stereotype that blackface performances cultivated.]

Halloween costumes for anyone out of high school tend to be outsized attempts at 'sexy', 'scary', or 'funny'. What, then, in addition to all the miserable historical connotations, does wearing blackface for Halloween imply black people are? Hilarious, fearsome, and/or seductive, unless your party is on an island far away from mainstream culture. Looking at the costume, the first two adjectives seem more likely.

One big problem with blackface in this once-a-year Halloween getup is even more simple, though:

By donning someone's race and skin color as a costume - and by saying as much - you are claiming that an entire heritage is as simple to adopt as slathering on shoe polish. [Or flour, really - if I dressed as an Italian for Halloween, that would be equally simple on this level.] When you consider that black heritage is one pitted against oppression, lynching, slavery, and a culture that, yes, employs racial stereotypes propagated by blackface minstrelsy to this day, it's remarkably offensive even before addressing the timeline context.

Here's the sad connection between the OG blackface performer and a kid in upstate New York proclaiming '@!$%#ing BLACK' as a costume, as stated by Eric Lott here:

I think the stereotypes that emerge from the 19th century minstrel show circulate to the present day and are crucial in defining white people's sense of who black people are, I'm sad to say.

Folks, put the burnt cork down and go as one of the obvious ones next year.

...

Edit: Changed the link in the fourth 'graph to go directly to the image rather than to my friend's blog at their request.

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  • tyler's Column
  • Groups: African American Vine, Anti-Discrimination, BlackFolks, Race Relations, Racism Watch, Respectful Debate
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  • Public Discussion (675)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
tyler

I got kind of frustrated during the Facebook discussion because people were saying, essentially, that color-donning was bad but blackface isn't any different from whiteface and history shouldn't matter. That was dumb; it's impossible to honestly discuss race without acknowledging history.

Also, I do not condone color-donning the way the friend of a friend did it regardless of what color is being donned by whom; especially terrifying stuff like Dwyane Wade's Halloween costume. Eep!

  • 23 votes
#1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:05 PM EST
USAF Vet-923294

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

George Santayana, Spanish born American Philosopher, Humorist and Poet - 1863 - 1952

I have to agree Tyler.

  • 9 votes
#1.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:18 PM EST
Simplistic Reality

Is it equally not okay for Blacks to do a "White face" if you will? That reminds me of that movie called "White chicks" where these two Black guys acted like and looked like White chicks. My question is.. its it unacceptable the other way around. If not.. is that not a double standard?

  • 28 votes
#1.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:07 PM EST
Acapulco Kevin

Love ya Tyler. You fight to the death and then break out with the defibrillator.

In the image, which you can see here, the guy's wearing an oversized hoodie and a gold chain. It's reasonable to interpret this costume as a stereotype of a black man.

Slave days are long past. White kids have embraced black culture. That kid could be interpreted as Snoop Dawg or P Diddy.

Relax Tyler, you don't have to defend black people or beat up on a teen age white kid that wants to be black.

It's ok man. Really.

  • 16 votes
#1.3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:45 PM EST
tyler

That reminds me of that movie called "White chicks" where these two Black guys acted like and looked like White chicks.

This got brought up in the Facebook discussion, too. Copypasting verbatim, so this may be a little clunky in response [I haven't seen 'White Chicks']:

not really familiar. I think Eddie Murphy's classic 'White Like Me' SNL bit where he discovers a culture of white collusion, is a hilarious satire about misconceptions, though.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356/saturday-night-...live-white-like-me

Important distinction: my post is about halloween costuming, not portrayal in film and TV. There was a blackface movie wide-released the year I was born.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/

Haven't seen that either. By most accounts, it was pretty innocuous. I think Downey's character in Tropic Thunder is funny. But you can provide a lot more context in a movie than dressing up as another race for halloween.

Also, comparing whiteface to blackface is about as ridiculous as drag and blackface. I don't know if there's much history of whiteface before that Murphy sketch.

Whiteface in the same context - a Halloween costume - would be just as stupid but less offensively ignorant, and I think I alluded to as much in my original piece.

Bolding mine, obviously, since Facebook's commenting system is criminally weak-featured.

Is it equally not okay for Blacks to do a "White face" if you will?

It's not okay but it's not as bad. This is about where the conversation went nuts on FB. Which you can see here, SR, since we're friends and all.

  • 15 votes
#1.4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:51 PM EST
tyler

Slave days are long past.

Two 70-year-olds or so [around the 5-minute mark]. It's a long time to live, and kind of a long time in American history, but it's a bit of a blip on the world timeline.

White kids have embraced black culture.

Some white kids have embraced some parts of it.

That kid could be interpreted as Snoop Dawg or P Diddy.

Dogg. If he had presented himself as Snoop or Diddy as opposed to '@!$%#ing BLACK' I doubt we're having this conversation because I don't think my friend would have Tumblogged it.

you don't have to defend black people or beat up on a teen age white kid that wants to be black.

I don't see a defense of black people in here, and I think I did a good job of not projecting anything on the guy. [I don't know him. Apparently he read this and still didn't see anything wrong with it, but that doesn't make him a bad person or a racist or anything.]

Acapulco Kevin, do you think me posting this on my blog means I shouldn't be allowed to work here?

  • 25 votes
#1.5 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:59 PM EST
Acapulco Kevin

Tyler

Acapulco Kevin, do you think me posting this on my blog means I shouldn't be allowed to work here?

I don't think projecting your self as a racist is a reason to lose your job. I find this article equally offensive on your blog as I find it here.

You are 24 and don't know what racism is. I remember what it was like and I see what it is now. white kids want to be black, black guys want to appear downtrodden and misunderstood.

The black people are so abused in today's society. Having to sit at the back of the bus and not eating at the white mans table. Oh wait! That was 50 years ago.

I guess the black community is just offended by teenage white kids wearing Halloween makeup now.


  • 17 votes
#1.6 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:17 PM EST
Dennis P McCann

I don't know if there's much history of whiteface before that Murphy sketch.

Watermelon Man. Great film, @!$%#ty title.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066550/

  • 10 votes
#1.7 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:28 PM EST
tyler

You are 24 and don't know what racism is.

Sigh. It's always the age thing.

I find this article equally offensive on your blog as I find it here.

What offends you?

I guess the black community is just offended by teenage white kids wearing Halloween makeup now.

Since when am I 'the black community'? I have one white parent and one black parent; I'm just speaking for myself.

Watermelon Man. Great film, @!$%#ty title.

Oh word! That is whiteface, although the character isn't in whiteface, it's a white guy turning black.

  • 23 votes
#1.8 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:43 PM EST
Dennis P McCann

Well, yeah, but the actor is a black guy who's in whiteface for the first half of the film.

  • 9 votes
#1.9 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:48 PM EST
Chasing

I do have to think that there can be an artistic merit in some types of *face. If the story is about a black person, then surely there are plenty of black actors to fill the role. But if the story is about people exploring color in racism (black makeup to illustrate different attitudes toward the same person, albeit with different skin tone, etc) or that interplay between "worlds", as in Watermelon Man then that's perhaps a different story and arguably not *face at all (as, for example, black face is qualitatively different than full costume/makeup, surely?).

  • 4 votes
#1.10 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:59 PM EST
ohiogal-479871

Is it equally not okay for Blacks to do a "White face" if you will? That reminds me of that movie called "White chicks" where these two Black guys acted like and looked like White chicks.

So what? Robert Downing Jr. dressed up as a black guy in Tropic Thunder and he did an amazing performance that was ha-frigin-larious.

It's one thing to dress up as a black person, its another thing to dress in "blackface."

In the old minstrel performances, the man in blackface was the equivalent to the clown. A clown that embodied how white people viewed blacks in that era. It was demeaning and disrespectful to blacks, and you have to wonder about anyone would would WANT to emulate such a character. Let alone why anyone would WANT to defend it.

  • 13 votes
#1.11 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:05 PM EST
ohiogal-479871

Since when am I 'the black community'? I have one white parent and one black parent; I'm just speaking for myself.

Didn't you get the memo? When anyone with an increase of melanin deposition speaks, they must be speaking for "their community." Ya know, in borg like fashion.

  • 11 votes
#1.12 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:11 PM EST
Acapulco Kevin

The kid this article was about was not in black face makeup.. He was in black Halloween makeup going to a frat party.

Tyler took exception to the boy being in black makeup and wrote an article on his blog bashing the poor kid.

In case you missed it.

It was a racial article written about this boy:

http://redwoodcephalopod.tumblr.com/post/1476616840/ignorance-naivete-and-white-privilege

And it came from Tyler's personal Blog at this link:

http://passiveharassment.com/

From Tyler's Blog and I quote:

In the image, which you can see here, the guy's wearing an oversized hoodie and a gold chain. It's reasonable to interpret this costume as a stereotype of a black man. [It's taking a mature restraint and a late hour to keep me from extrapolating the alternate Yankees fitted into a comparison tangent about gangsta rap vis-a-vis the 'buck' stereotype that blackface performances cultivated.]

I keep getting email from Viners asking why Tyler has flipped out.

  • 9 votes
#1.13 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:12 PM EST
Dennis P McCann

Everything you just said is in Tyler's article, above. Simp[ly follow the links.

Well, except this:

I keep getting email from Viners asking why Tyler has flipped out.

Which is just more trolling.

  • 20 votes
#1.14 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:16 PM EST
Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

From Tyler's Blog

extrapolating the alternate Yankees fitted into a comparison tangent about gangsta rap vis-a-vis the 'buck'

White People are the YANKEES in this article.

Honkey, yankee, cracker, pecker wood ! All the same ...

Racial slurs against white people.

  • 8 votes
#1.15 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:17 PM EST
magz

@ ohiogal

I saw that movie, precisely because I think Robert Downey Jr. is arguably the most gifted actor of his generation. And if you saw that movie as you claim, then you would know that Downey wasn't making fun of black people, he was making fun of white people. Which white people? Certain Australian actor(s) who like to brawl and brag that they/he can play any character they choose. He did it so well, that I really don't want to be Russel, er, a certain brawling full of himself Australian actor.

Oh about the highlarious reference, my favorite is still Debra Messing's take on Will and Grace.

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:19 PM EST
spiffie

Your fixation on Tyler has long since passed the line into being unhealthy. Don't be That Creep.

  • 17 votes
#1.17 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:22 PM EST
Kshark

Gee and I thought the whole premise of today's society was

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

-------------------------------------------

magz--

Well Australians in the long run just don't care. They have senses of humor and would laugh at Tropic Thunder anyway. Australians HATE political correctness.

--------------------------------------------

ohiogal-479871--

Uh it was Halloween. People dress up as sluts, pimps, hookers, witches, ghosts, ANYTHING. That is the point with Halloween. You find Tropic Thunder funny of Downey Jr a white dude playing a black dude, yet you say how dare someone dress as a black dude or black face for Halloween?????

What is the difference?? None

  • 10 votes
#1.18 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:59 PM EST
Marshall James

because of your own issues with race.....it doesnt mean everyone has those issues. I am white and my children are white....my youngest son idolizes stephen gray from gonzaga and I can tell you right now that he would dress in blackface and not be racist one bit.

symbols change over time.....ie...swastika.

its time we put the racial issues aside and look at what people have to offer the world. Tyler you fall into the trap of what so many others do in this country...and its wanted by the government.

break free from your chains.

  • 13 votes
#1.19 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:49 PM EST
Chasing

that he would dress in blackface and not be racist one bit

It would nevertheless be racially and historically insensitive is the problem, regardless of intent. A person without a racist bone in their body is still capable of performing what amounts, unfortunately, to a racist act. We live in a world where race is very salient - no matter how we may wish for a colorblind world we do not live in one, and we, ourselves, never will. To launch straight to acceptance of blackface would be to vault over a few (dozen) intermediate steps - such as accepting that because race is experienced, racial history has consequence.

  • 8 votes
#1.20 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:02 AM EST
Marshall James

so by your reasoning....anything could be offensive then as most all of us has been a victim in our historical past.

its called letting go of your own biased, prejudiced bigotry and letting people be judged by their actions. and dressing as a white person if you are black or a black person if you are white is not offensive in the least. I dont give a @!$%# what happened in the past.

japan attacked the usa in 1941...killed thousands and took us into war...does that mean we should shun or hate the japanese???

lets move on people...get over it.

  • 11 votes
#1.21 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:08 AM EST
spiffie

anything could be offensive

New to Newsvine, are ya? ;)

  • 6 votes
#1.22 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:13 AM EST
Chasing

It's not so much my reasoning as it is the unfortunate fact on the ground - I would love it if we could just all roll out of bed tomorrow and leave all that in the past, but it's pretty much impossible since it is happening in our present, and not just our history. Until that changes then "blackface isn't racist" is going to be an impossibly hard sell. It may be that one day it won't be such a raw touchpoint, but acceptance of blackface is hardly the next step on the path toward that world. It threatens, in fact, to do just the opposite - not a step forward, but a step back. Society, at present, pretty firmly accepts blackface as insensitive at best - anyone who wants to ignore that risks society's condemnation, and should not feign surprise when they receive it.

  • 7 votes
#1.23 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:15 AM EST
Marshall James

seems like some people just cannot move on....we did as a country and do not hate the japanese.....funny huh??

we need to quit making excuses for those who cannot move on...they are as much of a problem to society as to those who were racist to begin with.....holding the same racist sentiments.

we need to move on....we must move on....and we shouldnt make excuses for those who cannot.

  • 13 votes
#1.24 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:19 AM EST
Acapulco Kevin

james-1416766

seems like some people just cannot move on....we did as a country and do not hate the japanese.....funny huh??

we need to quit making excuses for those who cannot move on...they are as much of a problem to society as to those who were racist to begin with.....holding the same racist sentiments.

we need to move on....we must move on....and we shouldnt make excuses for those who cannot.

Amen. This article blows.

  • 10 votes
#1.25 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:26 AM EST
Chasing

do not hate the japanese

I'm not saying Charlie Chan was supposed to be Japanese, but still, he was portrayed by a white actor in "yellow face" and it is still considered to be inappropriate and racially insensitive. It's not just blackface.

we shouldnt make excuses for those who cannot

That's fine and all, but if your kid goes out in blackface, regardless of his innocent intent, he should know that he might be offending others, and also might face some very real and very unfortunate real world consequences for it. He might get in a physical altercation. He might have video of his escapade forever emblazoned on YouTube - no future in political office, I'd presume. That sort of thing. Whether or not you or he thinks that should happen, it potentially will. Why offend people unnecessarily? It's pretty easy to not dress in blackface, after all...

  • 9 votes
#1.26 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:30 AM EST
spiffie

Damn. I lost the bet that you'd stick to your guns.

  • 3 votes
#1.27 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:31 AM EST
Chasing

Amen. This article blows.

Kevin. I'm not saying diet is to race, but I still am curious how it's OK for you to insinuate that vegetarians are "crazy", but it's not OK for someone to say, hey, blackface is.... inappropriate? On the one hand you're insulting an entire swathe of people because of their diet, and Tyler is saying... uh, blackface, not so cool. And that is what's driving you up the wall? Really?

  • 10 votes
#1.28 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:33 AM EST
Marshall James

odd that now I just had one of my articles deleted.

  • 8 votes
#1.29 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:35 AM EST
spiffie

I'm not saying Charlie Chan was supposed to be Japanese, but still, he was portrayed by a white actor in "yellow face" and it is still considered to be inappropriate and racially insensitive. It's not just blackface.

Indeed. It's a long-standing sore point among the Asian American community that so many parts written as Asian are played by better known white actors. There was even controversy this year over the casting in the movie The Last Airbender (say whatever else you want to about it). To pretend that this simple doesn't exist is head-in-the-sand ostrichism at its worst.

  • 8 votes
#1.30 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:35 AM EST
Chasing

odd that now I just had one of my articles deleted.

What was it about? Anything relevant to this discussion?

  • 8 votes
#1.31 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:37 AM EST
Acapulco Kevin

I didn't target a teen white kid.

That is what this article was originally about.

which you can see here

Tyler knows these kids and has posted his problem here for all of us to see.

So who is the racist?

  • 6 votes
#1.32 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:38 AM EST
Chasing

I didn't target a teen white kid.

Tyler didn't target anyone for starters, he targeted the practice of blackface. You targeted the diet of vegetarianism.

(And I don't think that's Tyler's blog, there....)

  • 12 votes
#1.33 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:42 AM EST
spiffie

So who is the racist?

Given the forum, I think I'll demure in answer that. :)

  • 6 votes
#1.34 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:45 AM EST
Chasing

think I'll demure

Seriously! It's a nonsensical question. Point of fact: spiffie doesn't capitalize his name.

So who hates ice cream?

  • 5 votes
#1.35 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:48 AM EST
Plantsmantx

I got kind of frustrated during the Facebook discussion because people were saying, essentially, that color-donning was bad but blackface isn't any different from whiteface and history shouldn't matter.

Yeah well, frustrating you was probably their goal. Classic "colorblind" racism.

  • 11 votes
#1.36 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:01 AM EST
Marshall James

plant

yea you are right...we should hate and not move on against everything bad that has happened to mankind...for eternity.

  • 9 votes
#1.37 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:06 AM EST
spiffie

No one is saying we shouldn't strive for the ideal. The point is that it's a bit silly to go around deluded that we've reached that ideal when we clearly haven't. One can't simply ignore reality as it is, no matter how much one might want reality to be some other way.

  • 6 votes
#1.38 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:10 AM EST
Chasing

strive

Walk before run, walk before run.

  • 5 votes
#1.39 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:12 AM EST
Plantsmantx

One can't simply ignore reality as it is, no matter how much one might want reality to be some other way.

#1.37 is an expression of the "Racism Only Exists Because Black People Are So Unaccommodating, They Refuse To Pretend It Doesn't Exist" theory. It posits that racism will only go away when black people pretend it doesn't exist. You see, it's our fault. By pointing out racism, we make racists angry, which in turn justifies them being racist. It's the responsibility of black people not to provide that justification by capitulating to racism. Didn't you know that?:)

  • 10 votes
#1.40 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:24 AM EST
tangojones

Color-donning is very inappropriate. I don't like when people paint their face red and dress as the devil on Halloween. This is an offensive stereotype of all evil people.

  • 12 votes
#1.41 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:08 AM EST
ohiogal-479871

. And if you saw that movie as you claim, then you would know that Downey wasn't making fun of black people, he was making fun of white people.

Of course I saw that movie. And he wasn't making fun of blacks, NOR was he making fun of whites. ?????? It was a movie making fun of types of actors, not races of people.

RD Jr. wasn't cast as the Australian guy who's only role was to play out a bunch of Australian stereotypes. He was cast as the talented actor, with serious problems. He played so much time being other people, he couldn't find who he was as an individual. He was a 3D character that rose above his shortcomings in the end.

And that's why there isn't a problem.

"blackface" is a playing a type of character that is not an individualized, 3D character who performance grows, learns, and develops. A blackface character is never one of respect. It is the epitome of how the person in blackface "sees" a race of people.

  • 7 votes
#1.42 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:35 AM EST
usa1

A good site explaining the racial undertones and history of black face can be found here

Through out history most racism though not originating from is exploited and made socially acceptable by entertainment. Also note the symbolic url Yellow face on the same page, and the portrayal of the Jewish, Mexicans, Irish among others in history., have been attacked by the same type of imaging though not to the extreme of black face.

black face as with other deluded exaggerated stereo typed characterizations should never be accepted when portraying any group in a negative image.

  • 9 votes
#1.43 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:45 AM EST
magz

@ ohiogal

You are not at all a very good movie critic. Either that or you did not see Rolling Thunder. Christ, Downey's character evolves in that movie, while all the other white guys play stupid because they were stupid.The only smart character was black, and he was telling Downey's character to @!$%# off! Stop undressing yourself for my entertainment.

  • 3 votes
#1.44 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:08 AM EST
tangojones

while all the other white guys play stupid because they were stupid.The only smart character was black

That's Lib Pop Culture 101, bro.

  • 8 votes
#1.45 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:48 AM EST
SameSoulSistaAgain81

1.44 What?

The movie was called Tropic Thunder and the Black guy in the movie was far from smart. He was an idiot running around talking about booty sweat and bust a nut bars and loving a certain part of the female anatomy even though he was a homosexual. The movie was funny and ohiogal's summary was pretty much on point.

  • 10 votes
#1.46 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:23 AM EST
Marshall James

never play full on retard.

he was funny in that movie....underrated performance was tom cruise as the scumbag producer.

  • 7 votes
#1.47 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:28 AM EST
magz

Oh yeah Tropic Thunder. The black guy was the idiot? Really? As opposed to whom? Jack Black"s. Ben Stiller''s? What, exactly, is idiotic about being homo? Does that preclude you from liking booty sweat? Man, you people are @!$%#ing hilarious. The black guy was the straight guy (comic pun intended), and everybody else was white people on meth.

  • 2 votes
#1.48 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:48 AM EST
SameSoulSistaAgain81

The Black guy was AN idiot not the only idiot. All of the characters were stupid. Where did I say that being a homosexual was idiotic? You should watch the movie again and while you are at it reread my comment and at least try to comprehend it this time.

  • 9 votes
#1.49 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:56 AM EST
YaddaYadda

blackface isn't any different from whiteface

I can't believe anyone actually posited that argument. Ridiculous. Anyway, I took a peak at the kid in question. I actually found his costume offensive. And here's why. IMO, he was trying to look like a "thug", and by putting that makeup on, he basically stereotyped blacks. I mean, if he wanted to imitate someone in the rap community or some such, why didn't he just leave off the make-up and pretend he was Eminem?

I'm with Tyler on this one.

  • 10 votes
#1.50 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:41 PM EST
Pat N

Do you take the same issue with nurses being stereotyped at Halloween? Native Americans? Also, study the history behind the whole vampire legends. Should Romanian immigrants be offended? How about pope costumes? Should that offend catholics? I won't even go into the costumes that have limbs missing.

If these kids donned these costumes on...say August 10th or something...and walked into an AME church with them on...then there would be an argument. But we're talking 17 year olds at HALLOWEEN, here. to attach some kind of negative intent to it is silly. And if negative intent isn't being attached to these kids, then PC-ness run amok is.

Was their choice of costume tactless? Possibly. But we're going into dangerous territory when we start claiming every act of stupidity or naivety is really racism in disguise.

  • 13 votes
#1.51 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:56 PM EST
tyler

*cracks knuckles* Woo Newsvine! Always up for debate, love y'all.

I do have to think that there can be an artistic merit in some types of *face.

A lot of people dig the Spike Lee joint Bamboozled. I haven't seen it.

White People are the YANKEES in this article.

This is quite the misread. The friend of a friend is wearing a New York Yankees cap. They're a baseball team. To hear the pioneer of corporate gangsta rap tell it, he also made the Yankees fitted famous while representing blackness to millions of Americans.

The Civil War-era pejorative 'Yankee' generally referred to Northerners, which were majority white, but one could be a black yankee. Nowadays it seems to just mean 'American' in the world at large, particularly in England, with varying degrees of connotation.

In any case, I was referring to the guy's cap, not all white people.

You find Tropic Thunder funny of Downey Jr a white dude playing a black dude, yet you say how dare someone dress as a black dude or black face for Halloween?????

What is the difference?? None

Huge difference. The gap between someone painting their skin and proclaiming themselves '@!$%#ing BLACK' and a surprisingly nuanced sendup of acting where a self-absorbed white Australian character undergoes 'controversial' skin treatment to play a black guy is...substantial. Kirk Lazarus is a caricature of an actor [Russell Crowe, maybe], not a black stereotype.

Huge difference.

  • 15 votes
#1.52 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:06 PM EST
tyler

my youngest son idolizes stephen gray from gonzaga and I can tell you right now that he would dress in blackface and not be racist one bit.

He chose a good one, Steven's awesome. I'll see if I can get in touch with him and get his take on someone dressing as him in blackface. [Small world: Gray and my friend who posted the picture went to the same high school, though not at the same time.]

Actually, is that what you meant, james-1416766 - dressing as Gray in blackface, or just dressing in blackface? I think there's a mild distinction to be made there, but color-donning to dress up as a certain person isn't much better.

A red-headed, pale-skinned friend of mine went as Prince for Halloween this year sans blackface and it was a killer costume. Everyone knew who he was anyway. [All-time skin-dissonant costume favorite: Filipino twins I know going as Jack and Tyler Durden from Fight Club.]

Tyler knows these kids and has posted his problem here for all of us to see.

I think it's pretty clear I don't know the guy who dressed in blackface, but here: I don't know the guy who dressed in blackface for Halloween. I know Big Ase, the guy who posted the picture. Very good guy.

I don't like when people paint their face red and dress as the devil on Halloween. This is an offensive stereotype of all evil people.

Yeah, not equivalent.

  • 13 votes
#1.53 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:16 PM EST
tyler

Do you take the same issue with nurses being stereotyped at Halloween? Native Americans?

Native Americans, yeah. It's unacceptable to me to use 'stereotypical Wild West Indian' as a costume. It's akin to this.

But we're going into dangerous territory when we start claiming every act of stupidity or naivety is really racism in disguise.

Has anyone done that? I haven't even attached 'negative intent' to it, I'm explaining why the act is unacceptable and insensitive [naive and stupid, well, probably].

Always love reading you, Pat N, but read me a little closer than that.

  • 13 votes
#1.54 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST
tyler

we're talking 17 year olds

Point: I don't know how old that kid is, even though I don't think it makes a big difference.

Acapulco Kevin introduces his age and guesses 17 in #4 [collapsed], but my friend who's his friend is 22 and I don't know how they know each other.

Plus he's wearing, you know, blackface, so I think it's hard to estimate.

  • 12 votes
#1.55 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:25 PM EST
alexab-614

I cannot believe you haven't seen Bamboozled tyler! I LOVE IT

  • 2 votes
#1.56 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:30 PM EST
Pat N

Native Americans, yeah. It's unacceptable to me to use 'stereotypical Wild West Indian' as a costume. It's akin to this.

So where does it stop? You...a person without Native American roots (to the best of my knowledge)...find kids dressed in stereotypical indian garb for Halloween, "offensive". Would it then stand to reason that I...someone of no particular religious persuasion, should be "offended" by constumes mocking Catholic priests or the Pope?

Should all people be offended by the mysogenistic "sexy ___fill in the blank___" costumes?

Has anyone done that?

Yep. There are posts all over this thread calling "bigoted" and "racist".

I haven't even attached 'negative intent' to it,

I don't recall singling you out as one who has.

I'm explaining why the act is unacceptable and insensitive [naive and stupid, well, probably].

And I'm wondering what Halloween costumes...aside from a fairy princess or a clown...don't have the potential to be 'insensitive'. Especially among those costumes popular with teenagers or adults.

  • 10 votes
#1.57 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST
spiffie

Would it then stand to reason that I...someone of no particular religious persuasion, should be "offended" by constumes mocking Catholic priests or the Pope?

*Should* you be or *could* you be? Those are two very different question. I'd not that it's certainly the case that Catholics of certain persuasions are, in fact, offended by such costumes, particularly if they're of the "sexy nun" type.

Should all people be offended by the mysogenistic "sexy ___fill in the blank___" costumes?

Should they be or could they be? Arguing should is arguing a change in social mores. There are certainly people who are greatly offended by the (over)sexualization of American society.

  • 4 votes
#1.58 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST
Marshall James

Tyler

small world if you can get in touch with stephen gray.

What I am saying is that white people can dress in blackface and not be disrespectful. To automatically assume that it is racist would be wrong without knowing the motive.

as I said...my son would do it out of admiration....nothing else.

  • 9 votes
#1.59 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:23 PM EST
Chasing

Also, as an aside: know your audience. And realize that your audience doesn't necessarily include everyone between you and that Halloween party you're aiming to be at. And if you realize (as you should, in the case of blackface) that it is frowned upon by the majority of society, know that the party might nevertheless have people who might be offended. It's an easy enough thing to not offend them with blackface. So don't be shocked if you get shunned if you do. *shrug* But sure, it's up to the individual to dress as they feel appropriate. Surely, though, part of the fun is being seen, though? Unless they dress up in costume at home, doing dishes or watching House, or whatever.

  • 5 votes
#1.60 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:25 PM EST
Pat N

*Should* you be or *could* you be?

and therein lies the problem, IMO. Holding one person accountable for how another person "could" react is a recipe for failure.

That, and i get frustrated with the lack of consistency in whats considered acceptable and what isn't. It causes a whole society to walk on eggshells out of fear of offending the other guy.

Case in point. Take piercings, tattoos and even self-scarring. All of these things have deep, rich,, meaningful roots in not only race but religion/spirituality. yet today...we see teenagers of all hues and religious backgrounds, wandering around the mall with their eyebrows pierced, tattoos on their necks, etc. No one finds these practices an offense to race or religion, though. And the people who do find it offensive, refer to the practice as "freakish" or some other derogatory term.

So we have kids running around daily making a mockery or ancient race and religion...we have other people calling the practices of ancient races and religions "freakish...and no one says a peep. Yet we have a stupid kid that wears a costume on Halloween...a day set aside for dressing up...and he is vilified.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying his choice makes him the sharpest dart on the board. But I am saying that he shouldn't be held accountable for someone elses reaction and there needs to be some consistency in what is "socially acceptable" if people are going to keep citing it as the rule of thumb.

  • 11 votes
#1.61 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:43 PM EST
spiffie

Holding one person accountable for how another person "could" react is a recipe for failure.

That depends a lot on what you mean by "accountable." In a social setting, should there be any legal consequences? No. In a work setting, could you be held accountable to company policy? Yes. If you're dumb enough to show up to a button-down law firm's Halloween social in a sexy nun (or whatever) costume, I don't know that you should be surprised when they fire your ass.

That, and i get frustrated with the lack of consistency in whats considered acceptable and what isn't.

Uh, you realize that people have different opinions as a matter of course, right? Get 100 people in a room and you'll get 101 opinions about what's appropriate. There's never going to be total consistency; that's just a fact of life.

It causes a whole society to walk on eggshells out of fear of offending the other guy.

Cripes, no one is saying walk on egg shells. Exhibit a little bit of tact, take two seconds to think about the feelings of others once in a while. It's really not that difficult for most people, and for those people with disorders that make social interactions difficult, there's professional help.

  • 8 votes
#1.62 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:50 PM EST
ohiogal-479871

You are not at all a very good movie critic

Well you are probably right. *shrugs* I never share the opinion of critics. 90% of all Acadamy Award movies I go see I utterly hate. And I will never ever miss a Ben Stiller, Robert Downing Jr, or Jack Black movie for the world. It's probably why I have seen Tropic Thunder a bahzillion times. And probably why I will never get a job as a movie critic.

Either that or you did not see Rolling Thunder

You probably are either a worse critic than me, cuz you can't even get the name of the movie right with out being reminded. (even though I did type it for you.) Or you are one of those AMAZING critics that only goes all the "Great" films that wouldn't be bothered with remembering a film like Tropic Thunder.

. Christ, Downey's character evolves in that movie, while all the other white guys play stupid because they were stupid.

??? Ben stiller was able to overcome a movie flop that made him fearful of acting, Jack Black had to come to terms with his drug addiction. All the main characters evolved.

The only smart character was black, and he was telling Downey's character to @!$%# off! Stop undressing yourself for my entertainment.

You are probably the one of the few people in history to see Alpa Chino, a rapper on the down low, who loved to drink booty sweat as smart.

@James,

you are 1000% right, you never, ever, ever, ever, "play full on retard."

  • 7 votes
#1.63 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:32 PM EST
Kshark

james-1416766--

Playing the victim reaps more rewards.

Come on man, you know that.

Ya know what at this point if a white dude wants to dress as a black dude, if a black dude wants to dress as a white dude who the hell cares. I mean seriously. WHO!

Girls dress like guys, guys dress like girls are we going to start screaming sexism over that one???

  • 8 votes
#1.64 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:33 PM EST
spiffie

WHO!

I think someone somewhere might have written an article expressing such an opinion. Let me see if I can find it.

  • 4 votes
#1.65 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:36 PM EST
alanwillingham

Looks like there is a consensus here that every actor in Hollywood and the world over who pretends to be someone of another race or nationality must be confronted for their blatant disregard for those they so callously impersonate.

I remember a movie about a slave ship named La Amistad, which had a Spanish captain and was transporting African slaves. I was shocked to find that none of those dressed as Black Africans slaves were in fact actual African slaves. My suspicion is that the man pretending to be the Spanish captain wasn't Spanish either....

Does everyone agree this kind of intentional insensitivity must be ended immediately and forever?

; )

  • 8 votes
#1.66 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:40 PM EST
Chasing

a consensus here

Actually, several of us have gone out of our way to say otherwise.

  • 5 votes
#1.67 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:42 PM EST
Kshark

YaddaYadda--

blackface isn't any different from whiteface

I can't believe anyone actually posited that argument. Ridiculous. Anyway, I took a peak at the kid in question. I actually found his costume offensive. And here's why. IMO, he was trying to look like a "thug", and by putting that makeup on, he basically stereotyped blacks. I mean, if he wanted to imitate someone in the rap community or some such, why didn't he just leave off the make-up and pretend he was Eminem?

Trying to look like a thug? So basically you are stereotyping blacks right there. LOL So anyone wearing a hoodie and baggie pants or whatever pants is trying to be a black thug? That is what you are saying so you are saying that is how blacks represent themselves.

Eminem? So basically it is all right to be a white thug whom I am sure some would probably say Eminem is trying to be a black dude trapped in a white body. Of course Enimen from the Detroit Ghettos no he couldn't possibly relate to being black at all.

Reminds me of the MASSIVE stink up of the Stepping Competition and the near all white team won and black people were bitching up a storm saying how dare white people step at all.

So bottom line people do NOT want Equal Opportunity at all.

  • 8 votes
#1.68 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:44 PM EST
spiffie

Actually, several of us have gone out of our way to say otherwise.

Yup, still not anyone's straw man.

  • 4 votes
#1.69 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:44 PM EST
Kshark

alanwillingham--

*laughing hard*

Ok that is funny.

man people were bitching up a storm of having Jake Gyllenhal playing the Prince of Persia. People are complaining of some white actress possibly playing a remake of Cleopatra.

Heck remember West Side Story, Maria wasn't even Latino. Natalie Wood was a white bread American.

So yup I think we need to go and bitch up a story of how dare Hollywood use the WRONG people for their portrayals.

  • 6 votes
#1.70 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:49 PM EST
tyler

I cannot believe you haven't seen Bamboozled tyler! I LOVE IT

I think I was 14 when it came out, so it's not that weird. :)

You...a person without Native American roots (to the best of my knowledge)...find kids dressed in stereotypical indian garb for Halloween, "offensive". Would it then stand to reason that I...someone of no particular religious persuasion, should be "offended" by constumes mocking Catholic priests or the Pope?

This may make me abnormal, but I don't have a team. Maybe growing up balancing two races in my identity has something to do with it, but I'm interested in and against racism anywhere. It's not my life's work or anything, but just because I don't share a heritage doesn't incline me to ignore abuse or mockery of it.

Sexy nun costumes always rang of trolling to me, and I'm not Catholic, either, but I think religion and race aren't good equivalents here, so:

It would 'stand to reason' for me, Pat N, that you would find blackface/stereotypical 'Indian' garb as costume offensive, even though i don't know what race you identify as.

Should all people be offended by the mysogenistic "sexy ___fill in the blank___" costumes?

I'm a little grossed out by a lot of them, but that's just me. I think it's very easy to conflate 'offensive' with 'offending someone'.

9/11 costumes? Offensive.

An aggressively cleaving geisha? Offensive to me, probably not to many. Boobs, you know.

If I had written this as an open letter to the guy in blackface, my feelings would be the last thing I'd mention.

small world if you can get in touch with stephen gray.

Steven. I think I can. He's got a lot on his plate, though, so I dunno if I'll be able to get him to comment.

There are posts all over this thread calling "bigoted" and "racist".

Ah. At least it's limited to the act. Impressively, I think I'm the only one who's been called a racist. :)

  • 13 votes
#1.71 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:51 PM EST
tyler

Looks like there is a consensus here that every actor in Hollywood and the world over who pretends to be someone of another race or nationality must be confronted for their blatant disregard for those they so callously impersonate.

Haha, I don't think anyone's saying that. Well, those guys who are pissed off about Idris Elba in the new Thor - which looks kinda bad - are saying that, but I don't think they care about Maria or Cleopatra, etc.

  • 11 votes
#1.72 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:54 PM EST
spiffie

Well, it's definitely not comic book canon. Might be funny to see Comic Book Guy riff off it in a couple of years.

  • 3 votes
#1.73 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:58 PM EST
Kshark

spiffie--

WHO!

I think someone somewhere might have written an article expressing such an opinion. Let me see if I can find it.

Oh wait wait silly me it would be articles about Uncle Tom's//Aunt Jemimas or Oreos.

So you are an Oreo, labeled by black people, if you are black trying to be white. You are a Coconut, labeled by Latino people, if you are Latino, or brown whatever, trying to be white.

List of ethnic slurs

But ya know what, I could care less if a black person wants to paint themselves white So what. Sadly Asian people ARE bleaching their skin to be more white. WHY? They have beautiful skin otherwise.

  • 4 votes
#1.74 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:00 PM EST
alanwillingham

tyler - Cleopatra....

..and of course, Cleopatra was Macedonian (Medo-Persian) as a direct descendant of Alexander the Great's general Ptolemy.... making her fair complected

  • 6 votes
#1.75 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:02 PM EST
Chasing

Skin bleaching is a long-standing tradition and while it is about whitening, it's not about Whitening, but yes, I agree, I don't understand the urge, myself. But then neither do I understand the urge to tan.

  • 6 votes
#1.76 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:04 PM EST
Kshark

tyler--

Idris Elba

Now that is one freaking sexy as all get out man!!! Gorgeous voice and hot accent. Crying shame he was killed off in The Wire.

Yeah well people complained that the movie The Blind Side was racist too.

  • 2 votes
#1.77 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:04 PM EST
Kshark

alanwillingham--

...and of course, Cleopatra was Macedonian (Medo-Persian) as a direct descendant of Alexander the Great's general Ptolemy.... making her fair complected

Ah but you see people don't know that. People automatically think Cleopatra, Egyptian, has to be of color, Arab looking.

---------------------------------------------

Chasing--

I won't ever understand it. Just more stupid emulation of Hollywood. As for tanning, ok me being a white female I will say I like a little bit of color to my skin as all white for me isn't all that appealing, but I won't go dark dark dark.

  • 4 votes
#1.78 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:07 PM EST
spiffie

Oh wait wait silly me it would be articles about Uncle Tom's//Aunt Jemimas or Oreos.

Huh? You've completely lost me.

  • 2 votes
#1.79 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:11 PM EST
alanwillingham

Kshark - Ah but you see people don't know that. People automatically think Cleopatra, Egyptian, has to be of color, Arab looking.

And when you write "people", you are referring to what... "people" who are being churned out of America's politically correct government schools with abysmal historical knowledge ?

  • 4 votes
#1.80 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:16 PM EST
Kshark

spiffie--

Sorry was meaning the people who would complain about black people dressing as white people or trying to be white.

--------------------------------------------------

alanwillingham--

Well you can read for yourself

Angelina Jolie Playing Cleopatra Angers Black Community

Casting of Angelina Jolie as Cleopatra fuels race debate (pics)

The Essence magazine article in full
Commentary: Another White Actress to Play Cleopatra?

Neither I, nor you, can assume where they matriculated from.

  • 3 votes
#1.81 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:52 PM EST
Eleanor Roosevelt

Who is that sexy man in the picture with the record? He is adorable and looks very smart. I want to give him a big wet kiss!

  • 1 vote
#1.82 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:58 PM EST
tyler

Crying shame he was killed off in The Wire.

Never doubt The Wire. I'm sure we got just enough Stringer. One of the best performances in a series full of them, though.

Gorgeous voice and hot accent.

Which one? Ha!

..and of course, Cleopatra was Macedonian (Medo-Persian) as a direct descendant of Alexander the Great's general Ptolemy.... making her fair complected

Not exactly. It's a debate that won't ever be settled, but she probably didn't look like Liz Taylor.

  • 7 votes
#1.83 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:01 PM EST
tyler

Who is that sexy man in the picture with the record? He is adorable and looks very smart. I want to give him a big wet kiss!

Your IP is showing, AK. Eleanor Roosevelt banned, rereg of Acapulco Kevin.

  • 18 votes
#1.84 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:02 PM EST
magz

Does this guy have a life? Should we start a collection for the holidays?

  • 11 votes
#1.85 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:27 PM EST
David S Jones

AK got banned/suspended? It was bound to happen; it was like watching a car slowly drive towards a cliff.

  • 8 votes
#1.86 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:32 PM EST
Marshall James

when did he get banned???

  • 2 votes
#1.87 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:44 PM EST
spiffie

Scroll down. It happened here.

  • 3 votes
#1.88 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:47 PM EST
Marshall James

he was suspended below.

I know we are not supposed to talk about other viners...and I have been on the receiving end of discussions with him...and agreed and disagreed with him....but I had never seen anything like the religous stuff he was saying below.

is that normal or did maybe he have somone posing as him.

I dont know.

tired

peace.

  • 5 votes
#1.89 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:03 PM EST
northern girl

He's had a rough few days and isnt acting like himself. A death of a close family member can do that to a person. Dont judge him on his last few days here, judge his entire time here. He was a good viner.

  • 4 votes
#1.90 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:10 AM EST
PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
spiffie

Whether or not Kevin lost his sister within the past week--and let's just say I've been around the block enough times to know I shouldn't take everything I read on the Internet at face value--as Tyler noted in the comment below banning Kevin, and as you can verify from the rereg account profile Kevin set up to upvote comments on his articles and seeds, the behavior that got Kevin banned began last month.

Put more succinctly, Kevin setup a dummy account weeks before he allegedly lost his sister, and engaged in what amounts to NV vote fraud to boot. That's not explainable by his recent grief or a spate of binge drinking.

  • 14 votes
#1.92 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:25 AM EST
VerbalBarb

Yes I do wonder if he is drinking heavy also plus the more I thought on it then in other posts I understand he lost a sister, any Viners know the score & Tyler please take this into accout that he might be medicated too ?

Tyler pointed out that the thing that got him banned was a second account he opened in November that he was using to vote up his own stuff for the last month. Tyler was being pretty darned patient with the meltdown over the last few days; but, it was the month-old second account that did AK in.

  • 14 votes
#1.93 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:32 AM EST
PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
VerbalBarb

Kevin made a couple of comments over the last day or so about his sister passing away, and he also dedicated his recent kitty thread to her and mentions her passing. No particulars though, and I don't recall him mentioning her being ill (but I haven't read everything he's ever posted).

A sad situation.

  • 7 votes
#1.95 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:47 AM EST
Marshall James

what the hell is it with viners holding multiple accounts??? not really sure I understand this practice.....you will get caught...everyone around here knows this.....its really odd....also it seems to be a right wing phenomenon....or is it the right wing is the only ones getting caught??

I have no idea AK leanings as he had me a bit confused at times.....such as in this article.. it was if as he was committing suicide the way he was attacking tyler...very odd.

oh well....I find it a bit depressing regardless when an experienced viner goes down in flames.

peace to all.

  • 6 votes
#1.96 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:57 AM EST
northern girl

I wouldnt be surprised to hear that a lot of viners have two or more accounts.

  • 2 votes
#1.97 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:49 AM EST
Darrah, Greenville, SC

I've happened to stumble on accounts that were bascially businesses. One "viner" wrote a story about how to get the perfect nails. Her source was her own business.

There are quite a few like that.

But it's scary that former viners who've caused trouble in the past can just march right up and open another account--probably some of their friends knowing about it too. I don't know if that's happened but some just come here to have one big party with their friends and would love to be able to sneak their friends back in.

  • 6 votes
#1.98 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:39 AM EST
Marshall James

from my knowledge of this once you are banned you are banned. He can see the IP address and so that prevents most from reincarnation. at least long term time on here...they may be able to be on here for a while.

am I wrong?

  • 2 votes
#1.99 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:43 AM EST
Pat N

I don't know how IP's work. (Which is precisely why when Rebecca signed up for an account from here at home, I immediately alerted Tyler that she and I weren't a case of 'multiples')

But couldn't people get away with registering for an account from home...get banned...and then register for an account from...say....work? Or a friends house...to get away with being a re-reg? Or would it become evident they were a re-reg the first time they logged on to the new account from home?

  • 5 votes
#1.100 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:48 AM EST
Darrah, Greenville, SC

I really wish we could have a staff member come on here once a wk. and address things like that. I was so naive when I first came here that I didn't think a person could actually do have two account or rereg. So I was surprised to find it going on.

But what's to prevent a person from having two accounts even if they don't use one to vote up the other? A lot of people have a big ego and like the thought of "cloning or multiplying" themselves. Or maybe having different personas. (I admit that I have fun changing my avatar a lot, although people realize I'm not portraying a "real" person or representing myself as looking a certain way.) Some could care less about the votes though. For some it's all about feeding the ego.

  • 4 votes
#1.101 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:54 AM EST
Dennis P McCann

Or would it become evident they were a re-reg the first time they logged on to the new account from home?

Yes, it would.

IPs are in the form of xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx. That's country.region.isp.your computer.

  • 8 votes
#1.102 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:03 PM EST
AustinSDeleted
Chasing

Or would it become evident

It also sort of becomes evident when they re-re-re-reg and flat out admit they are the banned person, so even if it were a mistake the first time (and it wasn't) it sure wouldn't be any more.

  • 10 votes
#1.104 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:40 PM EST
cant touch this-2813875Deleted
David S Jones

You could always use a proxy server.

    #1.106 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:15 PM EST
    spiffie

    It's technically against the UA to connect to Newsvine using a proxy or anonymizer, and NV has ways of telling when you're using one of the popular ones.

    • 9 votes
    #1.107 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:54 PM EST
    spiffie

    That's country.region.isp.your computer.

    Not actually, as it happens. It might have been roughly like that at some point for very small countries who could only afford a single restricted block of addresses (though I'm not actually familiar with it), but it's certainly not like that now. For instance, I note that www.agos.com.tr resolves to 82.151.131.119 while english.sabah.com.tr resolves to 194.36.160.213. Both are Turkish domains, despite not sharing a first set of numbers.

    • 8 votes
    #1.108 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:02 PM EST
    tyler

    cant touch this-2813875 banned, rereg of Acapulco Kevin.

    Re: multiples/IPs - I don't think it's as common as folks think, I don't investigate unless there's cause, and I dig into the poke history to make certain even when it appears to be open-and-shut. Probably worth its own article, though.

    • 12 votes
    #1.109 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:19 PM EST
    usa1

    I am wondering with so many banned EK Mike L, Joules Beef, and recently Acapulco Kevin,why are their profile pages still active. Is there a number count for users whether active, banned or disabled?

    • 4 votes
    #1.110 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:22 PM EST
    spiffie

    Profile pages and content (including comments) remain active--from what I've seen--unless the user requests to have their content removed. The exceptions seem to be users who are banned for being a rereg (no reason to let their comments stand, especially since they're almost always intended to cause trouble) and spammers/SEO idiots (who would benefit from keeping their links and ad words up).

    • 5 votes
    #1.111 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:47 PM EST
    AustinSDeleted
    spiffie

    I don't know enough about that case to say one or the other why it turned out that way. I do know they've removed articles/seeds/comments from users who have requested it in the past.

    • 5 votes
    #1.113 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:11 PM EST
    AustinSDeleted
    bonos_rama

    I had no idea Joules Beef was banned. I just thought he was taking a break. Wow.

    • 3 votes
    #1.115 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:12 AM EST
    ohiogal-479871

    Ya know,

    It's hard enough for me to keep up with my single account. I honestly don't see how (or why) people can take the time to get several.

    • 3 votes
    #1.116 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:34 AM EST
    YaddaYadda

    So anyone wearing a hoodie and baggie pants or whatever pants is trying to be a black thug?

    Nope. Anyone wearing a hoodie and baggie pants or whatever pants and paints their face black is trying to be a black "thug".

    • 7 votes
    #1.117 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:02 PM EST
    PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
    Pat N

    When the Hell did thugs start being a set color & why did I not get that Memo, folks think about this why is not a thug just a thug ?

    I was thinking the same thing. Seems those that want to continue to call others 'racist' are the very ones promoting a division among people.

    • 7 votes
    #1.119 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:02 PM EST
    Kshark

    tyler--

    LOL I didn't get enough of Stringer Bell. Ok granted I wasn't a huge fan of the character, unlike Omar.

    Which one? Ha!

    Listening to his real voice with his British accent. I LOVE IT!

      #1.120 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:31 PM EST
      Kshark

      YaddaYadda--

      So if I don't know a Navy Seal, one that is white, yet puts black paint or something black across their face are they then trying to be black thugs too?

      Would you say the same if a black person painted themselves white and dressed in the same clothes, would they then be white thugs?

      A thug is a thug. *shrug*

      ----------------------------------------------------

      PastNikeVet-906575--

      You will love this.

      Apparently thug and hoodlum are racist words now. LOL

      A Thug By Any Other Name

      Pinellas School Board chairwoman under fire for calling disruptive students 'hoodlums'

      • 3 votes
      #1.121 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:51 PM EST
      PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
      Dennis P McCann

      So if I don't know a Navy Seal, one that is white, yet puts black paint or something black across their face are they then trying to be black thugs too?

      Oh come on. If he does it during a night mission to make himself less visible, he's smart. If he does it on Halloween and says his costume is "@!$%#ing BLACK," he's a racist.

      Really...you don't get the difference?

      • 14 votes
      #1.123 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:17 AM EST
      bonos_rama

      Okay, black face is okay for some - some of you think it's okay to stereotype a black person as a thug. Got it.

      How about if someone dresses up as a priest and carries porn around? or a bag of candy and some toys?

      What about if someone dresses up as a Rabbi, complete with peyos (earlocks) and big black hat? Can they affect a Yiddish accent, too, and maybe carry a big bag of money?

      Can a person dress up as an Irishman with a giant bottle of liquor and act drunk?

      Where is a line drawn, or is it drawn at all with stereotypes?

      • 10 votes
      #1.124 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:08 AM EST
      Pat N

      Precisely what I was asking earlier. And didn't get much of a response.

      • 7 votes
      #1.125 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:11 AM EST
      Dennis P McCann

      Can a person dress up as an Irishman with a giant bottle of liquor and act drunk?

      Yeah, that one might be ok...as long as the bottle is Irish too.

      • 11 votes
      #1.126 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:13 AM EST
      magz

      Sometimes...sometimes hair is split so many times you go blind trying to see just how far you can parse. This is why I once a crush on Sinead O'Connor.

      • 3 votes
      #1.127 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:15 AM EST
      tyler

      Dammit, I detracked my own article. Catching up.

      Listening to his real voice with his British accent. I LOVE IT!

      There's plenty of it on his site. Cool guy.

      • 6 votes
      #1.128 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:51 PM EST
      Pat N

      Dammit, I detracked my own article.

      I didn't even know that was possible!

      • 5 votes
      #1.129 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:58 PM EST
      Tony Wlliams

      Pat

      Not just possible but to easy to do. Instead of clicking post if your at the bottom of the page it's one button under it. Did it twice but not on my own articles :)

      Happy New Years

      • 3 votes
      #1.130 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:09 AM EST
      McSpocky

      White audiences in the 1800s wouldn't accept black entertainers on stage unless they performed in blackface makeup. Therefore, it seems to me that dressing in blackface for Halloween would be the same as dressing as a black slave for Halloween. I think either one is completely wrong, and do so is no different than people calling other people racist names.

      That's my thoughts on the subject....

      Have a great New Year everyone!

      • 7 votes
      #1.131 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:08 AM EST
      Pat N

      Tony -

      Thanks! I guess I really did "get smarter here" today. ☺

      • 1 vote
      #1.132 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:31 AM EST
      tyler

      Not just possible but to easy to do. Instead of clicking post if your at the bottom of the page it's one button under it. Did it twice but not on my own articles :)

      Or in your tracker, you can stop tracking individually, or stop tracking all in any of the categories [in the oldschool top-of-the-screen one, not the wetbar, which may be a positive for the wetbar].

      Therefore, it seems to me that dressing in blackface for Halloween would be the same as dressing as a black slave for Halloween.

      I don't see it quite like that, but it was a practice popularized and exported during slavery.

      • 4 votes
      #1.133 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:13 PM EST
      VerbalBarb

      Dammit, I detracked my own article.

      I didn't even know that was possible!

      I've sometimes reported my own comments as being inflammatory or of no value; I don't pay attention and hit the ! under the wrong comment. I wonder if the mods think I'm nuts.

      This is usually followed by a facepalm.

      • 6 votes
      #1.134 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:26 PM EST
      spiffie

      "Facepalm" would actually be a welcome addition to the reporting options.

      • 9 votes
      #1.135 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:40 PM EST
      Tiredofit-946833

      spiffie, I just had to vote that comment up !! I think I would be hitting the "!" a lot if that were an option !

      • 6 votes
      #1.136 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:43 PM EST
      Mongowildman

      So, do you find the movie "White Chicks" offensive?

      • 1 vote
      #1.137 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 1:05 PM EST
      ohiogal-479871

      I'm offended everytime I get tricked into watching a film by the Waynes bros.

        #1.138 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 1:10 PM EST
        tyler

        So, do you find the movie "White Chicks" offensive?

        If you're asking me, see 1.4, and it's not the same thing. [Unless I have been misled and this is a documentary about black people donning whiteface, in which case it's still not the same thing.]

        • 8 votes
        #1.139 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 1:36 PM EST
        Soosalah

        Respectfully, I don't know if this question has been asked, but were this guy to wear a plastic "mask" of the entertainer, would it make a difference.

        Is it that it's Halloween or would it be permissible at say, a costume ball?

        • 1 vote
        #1.140 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 6:30 PM EST
        angelaisafan

        tyler

        I mistakenly posted comments copied from Newsvine archive that I should have posted in another Newsvine thread. I apologize for unintentionally derailing the flow of the conversation in your thread.

        • 1 vote
        #1.141 - Tue Jan 4, 2011 12:07 PM EST
        angelaisafan

        tyler

        I mistakenly posted comments copied from Newsvine archive to your thread. Mea culpa. My error was unintended.

          #1.142 - Tue Jan 4, 2011 12:16 PM EST
          angelaisafan

          tyler an error occurred when I hit the post comment. My post disappeared so I retyped another message (reason for two messages on the board)

            #1.143 - Tue Jan 4, 2011 12:26 PM EST
            tyler

            Respectfully, I don't know if this question has been asked, but were this guy to wear a plastic "mask" of the entertainer, would it make a difference.

            Yeah, that would be different on the surface, but a less-than-artful mask can still come off blackfaceish; related story from earlier this year. If it's a dead-on celebrity replica, I don't see what would be offensive in and of itself.

            Is it that it's Halloween or would it be permissible at say, a costume ball?

            My headline says 'particularly unacceptable'. Blackface is still not cool at the cotillion.

            • 4 votes
            #1.144 - Wed Jan 5, 2011 7:41 PM EST
            magz

            ...cotllion.

            Oh man, did you have to remind me of that? Dude, I was 17! How the hell was I supposed to know it was a Euro square dance?

              #1.145 - Wed Jan 5, 2011 10:41 PM EST
              Soosalah

              Thank you, Tyler.

                #1.146 - Thu Jan 6, 2011 12:35 PM EST
                Reply
                GraysonS

                It's unacceptable because doing it makes you a jerk. Some topics really don't need more of an explanation than "that's because you're an ass."

                • 13 votes
                Reply#2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:53 PM EST
                tyler

                Some topics really don't need more of an explanation than "that's because you're an ass."

                Ha! Yeah, I couldn't stretch this piece out much if I tried. It's like, 'hey, this is why, and this is why, and if that's not enough, we're through here.'

                • 19 votes
                #2.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:01 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                The Tribulation is a future time period when the Lord will accomplish at least two aspects of His plan: 1) He will complete His discipline of the nation Israel (Daniel 9:24), and 2) He will judge the unbelieving, godless inhabitants of the earth (Revelation 6 - 18). The length of the Tribulation is seven years. This is determined by an understanding of the seventy weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; also see the article on the Tribulation). The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation period, three and one-half years in length. It is distinguished from the tribulation period because the Beast, or Antichrist, will be revealed, and the wrath of God will greatly intensify during this time. Thus, it is important at this point to emphasize that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are not synonymous terms. Within eschatology (the study of future things), the Tribulation refers to the full seven-year period while the term “Great” Tribulation refers to the second half of the Tribulation.

                • 2 votes
                #2.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:13 PM EST
                Dennis P McCann

                Dude. Bible trolling? Really?

                • 20 votes
                #2.3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:15 PM EST
                Chasing

                Dude. Bible trolling? Really?

                Heh. When I replied to him down below I was actually working my way upward and had not realized that was what was going on. "Bible trolling" is exactly what it is. Wow.

                • 17 votes
                #2.4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:24 PM EST
                magz

                Uhoh...someone's quoting from Revelations. Rapture alert!

                • 14 votes
                #2.5 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:38 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

                • 4 votes
                #2.6 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:48 PM EST
                NJ Gal

                Play nicely children.....DON'T make me stop this car or NO ice cream!!!!

                • 4 votes
                #2.7 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:21 AM EST
                Reply
                Acapulco Kevin

                White kids do it all the time on Halloween. No one is screaming racism at frat parties.

                You know what makes a racist a racist? Complaining about racism all the time.

                The race card has been played too hard and too long.

                • 11 votes
                #3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:58 PM EST
                GraysonS

                White kids do it all the time on Halloween. No one is screaming racism at frat parties.

                I wouldn't scream anything--I'd just leave.

                • 8 votes
                #3.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:16 PM EST
                Acapulco Kevin

                And I would gladly show you the door ~ The party goes on without you.. Sorry.

                L

                • 3 votes
                #3.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:19 PM EST
                Dennis P McCann

                You know what makes a racist a racist? Complaining about racism all the time.

                I can't imagine a reality in which that makes any kind of sense at all.

                • 20 votes
                #3.3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:26 PM EST
                spiffie

                No one is screaming racism at frat parties.

                This is so obtuse, I can't tell if it's joking, trolling, or something else. Really? Blackface at frat parties is a perennial story, especially since idiot frat boys stated posting pictures of themselves in blackface to MySpace and Facebook.

                Here's an article discussing an incident from this year. Here's a whole document (PDF) from a frat discussing the racism and blackface specifically at frat parties. Even the freepers know better than to do this, and FreeRepublic is hardly a bastion of racial sensitivity.

                • 10 votes
                #3.4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:38 PM EST
                Chasing

                No one is screaming racism at frat parties.

                Try showing up at an Alpha Phi Alpha party in blackface. I dare you. Or, hey, how about the Kappa Alpha chapter in Austin that got suspended over a "Gin and Juice" theme party?

                Although, you know, "no one screaming racism" is not the same thing as "not being racist".

                • 10 votes
                #3.5 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:38 PM EST
                tyler

                Blackface at frat parties is a perennial story

                Yeah, there's one linked in the article:

                The above pictured record was pressed in 1973. And this guy wasn't alone in dressing in blackface for Halloween. But that's no excuse.

                Second link, first one's broken *shakes fist at NBC affiliate*.

                • 13 votes
                #3.6 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:45 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                God does not show partiality or favoritism (Deuteronomy 10:17; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; Ephesians 6:9), and neither should we. James 2:4 describes those who discriminate as “judges with evil thoughts.” Instead, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves (James 2:8). In the Old Testament, God divided humanity into two “racial” groups: Jews and Gentiles. God’s intent was for the Jews to be a kingdom of priests, ministering to the Gentile nations. Instead, for the most part, the Jews became proud of their status and despised the Gentiles. Jesus Christ put an end to this, destroying the dividing wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:14). All forms of racism, prejudice, and discrimination are affronts to the work of Christ on the cross.

                • 3 votes
                #3.7 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:10 PM EST
                magz

                I take the subways in NYC nearly everyday, and what I really hate is when some bible thumping maniac gets on my car and proceeds to practice the sermon that will finally get people in his congregation to kiss his holy ass. I mean, if it were a local train, fine. But then they intentionally get on express trains (the F and the D are for some reason, favorites) and you're stuck with the millionth John the Baptist wannabe for the next 15 minutes and I just want to yell out, STFU!

                Thank goodness I invested in an iPod...

                • 11 votes
                #3.8 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:47 PM EST
                Dennis P McCann

                Hey, thanks for the idea. I'm going to use my NV issue iPod...aka, the ignore button.

                • 13 votes
                #3.9 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:50 PM EST
                scubaguy011246Deleted
                Plantsmantx

                You know what makes a racist a racist? Complaining about racism all the time.

                I can't imagine a reality in which that makes any kind of sense at all.

                ...anti-black rhetorical "reality":).

                • 5 votes
                #3.11 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:53 AM EST
                Chasing

                collapsed because

                No, I'm pretty sure it's collapsed because he Bible-trolled. If you stand up in the audience at a third grader's church play and start shouting out the content of those collapsed comments you wouldn't be welcome, either, even if people agreed with what was being said. There's a time and a place, and there's also a way.

                • 12 votes
                #3.12 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:27 AM EST
                scubaguy011246Deleted
                Chasing

                That wasn't trolling

                He did it here, here, here, here, generally ignoring the reply function, not trying to make it a part of a cogent argument, and seeming strangely preoccupied with Tyler. You'll note that when he did tie it together, as in here, it was not collapsed (yet, anyway, and I don't think it should be).

                • 8 votes
                #3.14 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:25 PM EST
                scubaguy011246Deleted
                Plantsmantx

                I certainly didn't report any of them, and I wish they hadn't been collapsed. There's a lot of umm...irony, let's say, in him using those Bible passages to defend a bigoted act. I think that kind of up-is-downism needs to be seen...not hidden.

                • 8 votes
                #3.16 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:45 PM EST
                scubaguy011246Deleted
                Plantsmantx

                The bigoted act is that guy "donning" blackface. Kevin is defending him, obviously. That's not just an "impression".

                • 7 votes
                #3.18 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:10 PM EST
                scubaguy011246Deleted
                Plantsmantx

                If you divorce those comments from their context, of course they don't seem to defend racism.

                • 5 votes
                #3.20 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:28 PM EST
                Marshall James

                people who cannot see anything but racism and want to separate us into groups will see this as racism sure....

                kevin...I have no idea where that guy comes from.....he agrees with me on some things and has blasted me on others.....is he left wing right wing??

                regardless...we need to move past this...who cares...move on...we forgave the japanese as I stated above...its time to move on and forgive and let things be.

                my son would love to dress in blackface to be stephen gray from gonzaga...and it would only be out of respect.

                that should be enough for the people of this country.

                • 6 votes
                #3.21 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:42 PM EST
                tyler

                my son would love to dress in blackface to be stephen gray from gonzaga...and it would only be out of respect.

                I think this is interesting. james-1416766, are you bringing this up because your son brought it up [or has done it already]?

                Would you talk to him about the history of blackface? [Maybe bring up this discussion?]

                I don't see how donning blackface is an appropriate tribute. Buy his jersey and shoes, maybe listen to some Prince and Akon, but putting on the dude's skin seems misguided.

                • 11 votes
                #3.22 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST
                tyler

                scubaguy011246 banned, rereg of observer3141.

                • 16 votes
                #3.23 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST
                Plantsmantx

                regardless...we need to move past this...who cares...move on...we forgave the japanese as I stated above...its time to move on and forgive and let things be.

                You're acting as if Tyler is talking about something that happened in 1910. Move on and forgive...on an ongoing basis, now and in the future? Why?

                • 8 votes
                #3.24 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST
                Marshall James

                the reason I bring this up...he is 9 by the way...is he drew a picture of what he wanted to be growing up.

                he drew stephen gray.....he chose to color his skin...so he is seeing that he is a different color to him but he is not racist and so he sees no problem with that.

                I am assuming he would color his face if given the opportunity to dress as him for halloween for instance.

                I do not run my household pointing out differences in races. I am a libertarian so I find it offensive that people segregrate us into groups.

                we should observe people for who they are and not judge them by appearances.

                my son is proof of that and like I said....he would be innocent in his dressing up as him.

                this issue is more of a problem with those with issues in my opinion who need to let go of our past.

                there have been many atrocities in the history of mankind.....we can only move forward if we evolve and grow and reject the status quo.

                peace.

                • 6 votes
                #3.25 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:28 PM EST
                tyler

                the reason I bring this up...he is 9 by the way...is he drew a picture of what he wanted to be growing up.

                Gotcha.

                I am assuming he would color his face if given the opportunity to dress as him for halloween for instance.

                Why don't you ask him if he'd go as Steven Gray for Halloween? [Did he not have the opportunity to dress up for some reason?] I'm curious to hear his answer.

                • 6 votes
                #3.26 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:59 PM EST
                Marshall James

                we have season tickets to the zags...he finally is old enough now to appreciate sports.

                kids his age dont think about dressing as sports stars as a whole. he didnt think of it....prior to the season really so out of sight out of mind...he is only 9.

                if halloween was this month it would probably be a different story...its all about timing...what movies come out...what time of the year....that decides what they like at the time. come on tyler dont tell me you were never 9.

                • 6 votes
                #3.27 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:47 PM EST
                Dale S

                scubaguy011246 banned, rereg of observer3141.

                Man, why do people do this? 3rd time, you'd think one would get the hint...

                • 8 votes
                #3.28 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:43 PM EST
                XNihil0Zer0

                It's tough, depicting stereotypes is offensive, but altering skin color doesn't always depict a stereotype, such as James pointed out, when one dresses as an individual. Appearance can communicate a lot, sometimes it sends messages that are not intentional, sometimes others ascribe significance to the insignificant. I would not expect someone to be able to distinguish the difference between the depiction of a stereotype and the depiction of an individual at first glance. So even though there may be nothing wrong with it, even though it should not be offensive, it may be unreasonable to expect others to accept it as such.

                • 2 votes
                #3.29 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:49 PM EST
                tyler

                come on tyler dont tell me you were never 9.

                Never! Heh. I might have been a weird kid; my obsessions lasted years rather than months.

                if halloween was this month it would probably be a different story...its all about timing...what movies come out...what time of the year

                Yeah. I was just curious.

                • 6 votes
                #3.30 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:22 PM EST
                McSpocky

                My obsessions lasted for years instead of just months too. I'm still working on obsessions I started when I was 9. lol

                • 3 votes
                #3.31 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:14 AM EST
                angelaisafan

                people who cannot see anything but racism and want to separate us into groups will see this as racism sure....

                Odd how we whites do not see ourselves living our everyday lives in the most segregated areas in America. Divide us? Are you serious? We join racial discussion with the belief we are baited into revealing our pent up racial resentment. We are always innocent and well intended in every era of Americas overtly racial history. We are simply American! This is what we say we pass our myths along as fact and challenge anyone who disagrees.

                • 1 vote
                #3.32 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:13 PM EST
                Pat N

                Something just dawned on me...

                Are you the same poster that gave me hell for using the term: "black community"?

                • 4 votes
                #3.33 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:48 PM EST
                Reply
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                What was a valid argument in days gone past is now simply a crutch. A social excuse. Tyler is a self proclaimed racist by placing a false argument.

                Furthermore I think Tyler is a racist for picking on a skinny white kid in a public forum. The kid in his example picture is what 17?

                • 2 votes
                Reply#4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:39 PM EST
                Chasing

                Acapulco Kevin doth protest too much, maybe?

                A social excuse.

                You mean like screaming "race card!" when trying to provide cover for a racist act?

                • 10 votes
                #4.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:41 PM EST
                Dennis P McCann

                Oy. Looks like another guy playing 'suicide by cop.'

                • 12 votes
                #4.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:50 PM EST
                Chasing

                That's what I thought too, Dennis. Struck me as odd, on Tyler's article too, even. I once was told (don't know if it's true) that if you're going to park illegally, it's best to do it in front of the police station, as cops don't start paying attention for that sort of thing right away. Maybe that's the ploy, here?

                • 8 votes
                #4.3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:53 PM EST
                Dennis P McCann

                I dunno, man. This guy's been screaming about all sorts of perceived injustices in his column for the last few days. Dug up Tyler's blog as 'proof' of, aw hell, I dunno. Something or other.

                • 10 votes
                #4.4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:58 PM EST
                Chasing

                Ah, that's an entire aspect I was unaware of. I thought it was confined to this article.

                • 5 votes
                #4.5 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:02 PM EST
                Sally

                Furthermore I think Tyler is a racist for picking on a skinny white kid in a public forum.

                Acapulco Kevin, there is a fine line between saying something racist and being A racist. Saying the latter is a personal attack.

                This is against rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.

                Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

                You are suspended for a day.

                • 10 votes
                #4.6 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:21 AM EST
                Reply
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                Well ~ you folks just enjoy bashing that poor skinny 17 year old white boy.

                This article is absolute tripe, filth and disrespect.

                You people need to get a life.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#5 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:42 PM EST
                Chasing

                You might want to use the "reply" button, it'd make things easier for all. Thanks. But what makes you think this is about a "17 year old white boy"? It's not.

                • 12 votes
                #5.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:45 PM EST
                Reply
                Acapulco Kevin

                The first thing to understand in this discussion is that there is only one race—the human race. Caucasians, Africans, Asians, Indians, Arabs, and Jews are not different races. Rather, they are different ethnicity of the human race. All human beings have the same physical characteristics (with minor variations, of course). More importantly, all human beings are created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27). God loved the world so much that He sent Jesus to lay down His life for us (John 3:16). The “world” obviously includes all ethnic groups.

                • 5 votes
                Reply#6 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:09 PM EST
                Chasing

                This actually is an area I have done research in. While it is true that there is only one race, the human race, the fact of the matter is that race remains experientially real, and has been (and continues to be) historically real. It would be nice if the human race could transcend this one day, but it hasn't yet, won't any time soon, and black face is hardly the way to bring that about.

                • 13 votes
                #6.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:21 PM EST
                Reply
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                Racism, in varying forms and to various degrees, has been a plague on humanity for thousands of years. Brothers and sisters of all ethnicity, this should not be. Victims of racism, prejudice, and discrimination need to forgive. Ephesians 4:32 declares, “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” Racists may not deserve your forgiveness, but we deserved God’s forgiveness far less. Those who practice racism, prejudice, and discrimination need to repent. “Present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God” (Romans 6:13). May Galatians 3:28 be completely realized, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

                • 2 votes
                Reply#7 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:12 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                Amen.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#8 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:14 PM EST
                Darrah, Greenville, SC

                Tyler,

                This is somewhat off topic but it seems like people could use a break right about now.

                I have to admit that I've always been a little afraid of you because you run a tight ship and all...

                But that picture...is that you holding the record of Al Jolson? If so, wow!

                • 9 votes
                #9 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:50 PM EST
                Dennis P McCann

                Looks like the record is in damn good shape, too.

                • 10 votes
                #9.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:52 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                This article was Never about that album.

                It was a racial article written about this boy:

                http://redwoodcephalopod.tumblr.com/post/1476616840/ignorance-naivete-and-white-privilege

                And it came from Tyler's personal Blog at this link:

                http://passiveharassment.com/

                From Tyler's Blog and I quote:

                In the image, which you can see here, the guy's wearing an oversized hoodie and a gold chain. It's reasonable to interpret this costume as a stereotype of a black man. [It's taking a mature restraint and a late hour to keep me from extrapolating the alternate Yankees fitted into a comparison tangent about gangsta rap vis-a-vis the 'buck' stereotype that blackface performances cultivated.]

                Read more: http://passiveharassment.com/#ixzz18KmM09z6
                Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

                • 4 votes
                #9.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:59 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                A whole freaking article to slam a 17 year old white boy at a Frat party.

                • 3 votes
                #9.3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:01 PM EST
                Chasing

                Dude. If I see a picture of a kid kicking a dog, and I am moved to write an article about how "Kicking Dogs is Unacceptable", let me assure you, the article, though it may involve the dog-kicking kid, is not about the dog-kicking kid. And no amount of scatter-shot reply-button-ignoring bible-quoting comments will change that. But if you don't want to ever be an example in a "Don't Kick Dogs" article, you know what? Don't kick a dog.

                • 13 votes
                #9.4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:06 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                In this tiny little blurb Tyler is calling white people Yankees, he could have said pecker wood, cracker, any other slur. He chose to call white people Yankee.

                [It's taking a mature restraint and a late hour to keep me from extrapolating the alternate Yankees fitted into a comparison tangent about gangsta rap vis-a-vis the 'buck' stereotype that blackface performances cultivated.]

                • 2 votes
                #9.5 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:23 PM EST
                spiffie

                I'm pretty sure the only person who thinks "yankee" is a slur is you. I'd not, for example, that the New York Yankees have (to my knowledge) ever been pressured to change their name, unlike any number of other sports franchises. "Yankee Doodle Dandy" is still a perfectly acceptable tune. the New Yankee Workshop can still be seen on PBS stations nationwide. Seriously. You're reaching.

                • 7 votes
                #9.6 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:28 PM EST
                Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                Kiss a little deeper and you will discover chocolate.

                • 2 votes
                #9.7 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:32 PM EST
                Chasing

                An argument is most convincing when it is cogent. Otherwise it risks not being an argument at all.

                • 5 votes
                #9.8 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:35 PM EST
                spiffie

                #9.7 reported for no value. If you want to say something, just come out and say it, Kevin.

                • 5 votes
                #9.9 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:39 PM EST
                Plantsmantx

                extrapolating the alternate Yankees fitted into a comparison tangent about gangsta rap vis-a-vis the 'buck'

                White People are the YANKEES in this article.

                No, a fitted baseball cap is the YANKEE in this article. Good Lord, LOL.

                • 9 votes
                #9.10 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:42 AM EST
                ohiogal-479871

                You are showing your true colors with each post, Acapuclo Kevin.

                In this tiny little blurb Tyler is calling white people Yankees, he could have said pecker wood, cracker, any other slur. He chose to call white people Yankee.

                Are you insinuating that blacks can't be yankees? what about asians? are only whites yankees? You might want to re-look up the definition before you chew on your foot any longer.

                • 8 votes
                #9.11 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:46 AM EST
                tyler

                But that picture...is that you holding the record of Al Jolson? If so, wow!

                Uh-oh. Is it the henley? I can't tell if the 'wow!' is at me or the record.

                If it's the record, I found it at a Record and Tape Traders in Towson for a few dollars, and I'd never heard Jolson outside of The Jazz Singer, so I bought it.

                He can sing but it's boring.

                Are you insinuating that blacks can't be yankees? what about asians? are only whites yankees?

                There's a fun derail about Mattingly and Mantle vs. Winfield and Rodriguez in here somewhere, but that's for another article.

                • 9 votes
                #9.12 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST
                Darrah, Greenville, SC

                Tyler,

                The "wow" was for you and not your shirt (although it was nice too.) I find the album cover offensive.

                Soo...at the risk of getting a suspension (which I no longer want), you're hot!

                • 4 votes
                #9.13 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST
                magz

                Damn Yankees (sez a Met fan).

                  #9.14 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:51 PM EST
                  tyler

                  The "wow" was for you and not your shirt (although it was nice too.

                  *curtsies* I was all ready to defend the henley, too.

                  Damn Yankees (sez a Met fan).

                  Hey, they didn't get Lee and you guys have a new GM, magz. Things are looking up.

                  • 6 votes
                  #9.15 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:02 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                  If I wasn't a Black Man ~ perhaps I wouldn't be offended?

                  But I am offended by any black man that would single out the picture of a white child just because he was wearing Halloween makeup.

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#10 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:51 PM EST
                  Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                  Seriously low class, a blemish to the black race.

                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#11 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:52 PM EST
                  ohiogal-479871

                  Dude, what is up with your obsession with the black race? Does everything you do blemish the white race?

                  • 7 votes
                  #11.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:16 PM EST
                  Dennis P McCann

                  Dude, what is up with your obsession with the black race?

                  His obsession isn't with the black race. His obsession is with Tyler.

                  • 7 votes
                  #11.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:21 PM EST
                  tyler

                  Seriously low class, a blemish to the black race.

                  Who, me? I thought I represented the whole black community? Now I'm just a blemish? Harsh.

                  • 8 votes
                  #11.3 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:38 PM EST
                  Reply
                  dgdrutghcjfgDeleted
                  magz

                  Well yes, particularly on Halloween because it reinforces negative stereotypes and disguises it as some sort of humorous parody. That's just stupid, and where I live will most likely result in a serious beating and subsequent ER visit. Not that I would sanction said beating, of course, but that's what really stupid will get you sometimes.

                  • 4 votes
                  Reply#13 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:00 PM EST
                  Acapulco KevinExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                  No this article is a blemish to the black race. It was from a story on Tyler's personal blog about a 17 year old boy that was going to a frat party.

                  There were many costumes, the kid wanted to look like a rapper.

                  • 2 votes
                  #13.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:04 PM EST
                  Dennis P McCann

                  Why does it matter that Tyler posted it on his blog as well as here? So what?

                  • 15 votes
                  #13.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:08 PM EST
                  Chasing

                  There were many costumes, the kid wanted to look like a rapper.

                  And if there were many diets, and the kid wanted to eat like a vegetarian.....?

                  (And seriously, "look like a rapper"? He's never heard of friggin' Eminem?)

                  • 8 votes
                  #13.3 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:09 PM EST
                  tangojones

                  So as a white kid, he may only emulate M&M, or Vanilla Ice...just white rappers? Does he have to meet your approval for his choice of Halloween costume? What if a black guy put on an Elvis wig and a sparkly suit...no good?

                  • 7 votes
                  #13.4 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:18 AM EST
                  Chasing

                  Does he have to meet your approval for his choice of Halloween costume?

                  Yes, he does. Obama forced that bill through Congress just last week. Didn't you hear?

                  What if a black guy put on an Elvis wig and a sparkly suit...no good?

                  1) Is this theoretical guy wearing whiteface, and, even if so, 2) Did you miss the part, above, where historical differences sank any equivalency there, or did you just not agree?

                  • 5 votes
                  #13.5 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:58 AM EST
                  magz

                  Oh man, Elvis wanted to be black so bad he appropriated black music. If black folk do an Elvis, it's just sweet justice (just as long as it isn't Las Vegas Elvis...).

                  • 3 votes
                  #13.6 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:17 AM EST
                  tyler

                  Obama forced that bill through Congress just last week.

                  Noooooooooo.

                  So as a white kid, he may only emulate M&M, or Vanilla Ice...just white rappers?

                  Eminem. I'm cool with white kids going as black rappers for Halloween without blackface. I don't recommend going as Kanye and interrupting everyone, though, that's played out. Going as the three phases [wheelchair/crutches/standing] of Drake would be hilarious, I thought about doing that at some point.

                  • 9 votes
                  #13.7 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST
                  alanwillingham

                  I'm cool with white kids going as black rappers for Halloween without blackface.

                  How do you feel about Black girls dying their hair blonde?

                  ; )

                  • 5 votes
                  #13.8 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:50 PM EST
                  magz

                  'Bout the same as white blondes sporting 'dreads.

                  • 3 votes
                  #13.9 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:14 PM EST
                  tyler

                  How do you feel about Black girls dying their hair blonde?

                  *shrug* No particular way. Hair is usually fashion statement, not costume. [Although occasionally it's ignorant cultural appropriation.] I think Eve looked fly with the blonde 'do [French Maid costume derail alert!]; other folks, not so much.

                  I will say as someone who has straightened their own naturally coarse, curly, cowlicked hair that people [mostly black women] who straighten their hair all the time are wasting their time and cricking their necks when it would look beautiful natural, and a lot more has been written about that.

                  [Of course, many straight-haired people are busy curling their hair right now.]

                  • 8 votes
                  #13.10 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:16 PM EST
                  alanwillingham

                  So gangsta' clothes and a 'fro are all good, but no face makeup darker than pancake tan?

                  ; )

                  • 5 votes
                  #13.11 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:19 PM EST
                  David S Jones

                  [French Maid costume derail alert!]

                  Derail has been accomplished. I would do naughty things to her.

                  Cary on.

                    #13.12 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:03 PM EST
                    magz

                    Okay. I still think Boehner's tan/paint job is obscene.

                    (Hey, it is my sub-thread. Bonk me on me noggin tyler!)

                    • 1 vote
                    #13.13 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:31 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Well who knew that?

                    Tyler - do you know why (usually young) people do stupid , buffoonish and shallow things? Because the world is FULL of them and that's how Jerry Springer became so wealthy!!!

                    Lowbrows who cannot get attention from their own positive achievements will resort to ANYTHING to get attention. Therefore, if it's "workin for 'em' and causing a stir -they will keep doing it. ('Nuff said)

                    Next...............

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#14 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:20 PM EST
                    tyler

                    Tyler - do you know why (usually young) people do stupid

                    Glad you said usually. :) We sure don't have a monopoly on buffoonery.

                    Lowbrows who cannot get attention from their own positive achievements will resort to ANYTHING to get attention.

                    I dunno, I don't think this guy was expecting objection or any outstanding attention...posting your halloween costume to social networks is pretty common amongst us whippersnappers.

                    • 8 votes
                    #14.1 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Darrah, Greenville, SC

                    The photo of the guy is spooky and not in a good way! It gives me the kind of chill one gets every now and then by living in the deep south. But it doesn't happen often. I haven't seen anybody going in that direction in a loong time. We tend to be more educated than people give us credit for.

                    That's basically what it comes down to--being educated or being stupid. He was definitely being stupid as hell!

                    • 8 votes
                    Reply#15 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:34 PM EST
                    Acapulco Kevin

                    Well this was fun... Nothing like a good racial bashing.

                    Untracked.

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#16 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:35 PM EST
                    magz

                    Thank goodness, because I was about to ask tyler to stop accepting comments because some guy was proselytizing while revealing just how clueless he is about the history of racism in the US.

                    • 20 votes
                    #16.1 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:39 PM EST
                    spiffie

                    Nothing like a good racial bashing

                    I couldn't have described your boorish behavior on this thread any better myself. Odd that you're proud of it, though.

                    • 21 votes
                    #16.2 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:40 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Navy Doc 8404/06/09

                    Ok, so making a movie about black guys imitating dumb white girls is ok? Practice what you bitch. Funny movie though.

                    • 7 votes
                    Reply#17 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:16 PM EST
                    ohiogal-479871

                    that movie was stupid. Robert Downing Jr, playing a black guy in Tropic Thunder, now that was a funny movie.

                    Is it your selective perception that allows you not to see the difference between playing someone of a different race, and making fun of an entire race as you dress up in a stereotype?

                    • 4 votes
                    #17.1 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:49 AM EST
                    Navy Doc 8404/06/09

                    I assure you there is nothing selective about my perception. I will also note that my perception well above average thank you.

                    • 3 votes
                    #17.2 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST
                    tyler

                    Ok, so making a movie about black guys imitating dumb white girls is ok?

                    I haven't seen it, but I don't remember there being much uproar about that or the other movies mentioned. [Maybe Bamboozled.]

                    Funny movie though.

                    Thanks for the recommendation, but I don't think I've liked a Wayans flick since Scary Movie, which ultimately was more trouble than it was worth since they keep cranking out garbage like Vampires Suck off that template via Seltzer-Friedberg.

                    • 5 votes
                    #17.3 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:58 PM EST
                    ohiogal-479871

                    I will also note that my perception well above average thank you.

                    How? What is the diagnostic tool that delineates what is above average perception, and what is beneath?

                    There is normal perception and abnormal perception. Selective perception is normal, we all do it. But it takes practice to recognize when one does it so one can correct. Abnormal perception is hallucination, illusion, delusion, etc. It can not be easily recognized and it is harder to correct.

                    Average, above average, below average perception I haven't heard of. If you got more info, (and if Tyler allows) please share.

                      #17.4 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:47 PM EST
                      Reply
                      hemphill

                      Halloween costumes for anyone out of high school tend to be outsized attempts at 'sexy', 'scary', or 'funny'. What, then, in addition to all the miserable historical connotations, does wearing blackface for Halloween imply black people are? Hilarious, fearsome, and/or seductive, unless your party is on an island far away from mainstream culture. Looking at the costume, the first two adjectives seem more likely.

                      So when my group dressed up as the endless family from gaimens sandman series, was it sexy scary or funny? How about when my friend and his fiance dressed as a couple out of mad men? Or how about the couple I saw as decker and rachael from blade runner?

                      I think you may be missing a few options on what the intent is, or could be.

                      One big problem with blackface in this once-a-year Halloween getup is even more simple, though:

                      By donning someone's race and skin color as a costume - and by saying as much - you are claiming that an entire heritage is as simple to adopt as slathering on shoe polish. [Or flour, really - if I dressed as an Italian for Halloween, that would be equally simple on this level.] When you consider that black heritage is one pitted against oppression, lynching, slavery, and a culture that, yes, employs racial stereotypes propagated by blackface minstrelsy to this day, it's remarkably offensive even before addressing the timeline context.

                      This line of thought would make most any costume an insult. If one dresses as an indian or tonto is that as offensive? How about dressing as a russian or an australian, are you suddenly belittling their heritage? If you dress as rosemary from rosemary's baby are you not only desecrating the writers but abetting in antisemitism, since you are making light of polanski's work as well?

                      I think some more steps are needed between dressing as something and claiming that an entire heritage is simple to adopt. You are making a leap from his statement that he is 'going as a black man' to 'claiming that an entire heritage is as simple to adopt as slathering on shoe polish'. I don't see that the one implies the other, or that the one intended the other.

                      I do have to admit, I thought he was trying for darth sidious before I read the captions, and started paying attention.

                      • 2 votes
                      #18 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:13 AM EST
                      spiffie

                      sexy

                      Death

                      scary

                      Desire

                      funny

                      Delirium

                      So I guess the answer is "Yes."

                      • 3 votes
                      #18.1 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:25 AM EST
                      tyler

                      If one dresses as an indian or tonto is that as offensive?

                      Yeah. Close, at least. It's more culturally broadspread because Native Americans' political power/cultural presence are so belittled that there's still an NFL team named the friggin' Redskins, a slur that makes 'Yankee' look positively cordial.

                      At least you didn't say 'squaw'.

                      How about dressing as a russian or an australian, are you suddenly belittling their heritage?

                      Possibly. Dressing as a cold war stereotype of a Russian like this would be a pretty strong middle finger.

                      Dressing as Vladimir Tretiak, as I can in a pinch...not as much, obviously.

                      • 9 votes
                      #18.2 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:09 PM EST
                      hemphill

                      At least you didn't say 'squaw'.

                      I was told to call them 'indians' when I used 'native american' to describe a man named Chief. Chief heard me use 'native american' and threatened violence if he heard it again. Chief was 6'5" and around 400 pounds, a serious slab of a man. I took him seriously.

                      • 3 votes
                      #18.3 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:44 AM EST
                      Soosalah

                      I guess I'm not as rigid in thought as I should be, because if this young man did dress this way for a party, I think there is much ado about nothing on this thread.

                      If this young guy is really trying to impersonate someone he likes, then I think it's great. I probably can't explain it well enough, but to me, it means that the line once drawn, is being erased, and who doesn't want that to happen?

                      If he's doing this because he knows it will spark controversy, then yes, I think he's wrong, but I have no idea of his heart, is what I'm trying to say, and that's the question deserving of an answer.

                      There is a movie I like and when it debuted, it had people laughing in the aisles. It also had a very "did they just do what I think they just did?" type of scene. Some wanted it cut from the movie, and others didn't, so they took it to a guy who would be able to tell the writers if certain people would be insulted. That guy was Richard Pryor, and the movie was Animal House. The scene in question was the bar scene. "The Negroes stole our dates!"

                      For me, and I repeat, for me, that scene had one purpose, and that purpose was to show that if you belonged to the worst fraternity on campus, you really are that dumb. To think Otis would recognize them, and consider them friends, was absolutely spot on to show the arrogance of these fools. How thick can these "White" boys be? It was hysterical.

                      Now, today, I don't think young people would find Animal House as funny as my generation did, and since I can't speak for Tyler, I do wonder what his opinion is of the bar scene in the movie.

                      Regarding hemphill's comment about the Indians, that's a true statement. I live in Oklahoma, and we do not refer to the people here as Native Americans, but as Indians or Native Indians. The Cherokee have a great place to visit for the young, and the not so young, to learn and take part in ceremonies and everyday life.

                      • 7 votes
                      #18.4 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:22 PM EST
                      tyler

                      Chief was 6'5" and around 400 pounds, a serious slab of a man. I took him seriously.

                      What do you think he'd think of someone 'non-Indian' dressed as one, or Tonto?

                      • 4 votes
                      #18.5 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:23 PM EST
                      hemphill

                      What do you think he'd think of someone 'non-Indian' dressed as one, or Tonto?

                      I think he would laugh at the guy(because the costume wasn't accurate), then take him across the street and buy the first round of drinks.

                        #18.6 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:47 PM EST
                        tyler

                        I think he would laugh at the guy(because the costume wasn't accurate), then take him across the street and buy the first round of drinks.

                        And yet he threatened violence if he heard the term 'Native American'? Pretty schizophrenic.

                        • 8 votes
                        #18.7 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:26 AM EST
                        Pat N

                        I can't speak for hemphill's friend. Only from personal experience.

                        IMO, Hemphills friend objected to the term 'Native American' for the same reason I object to 'handicapable' or 'differently-abled'. These terms weren't created for any benefit to Indians or the handicapped. They were created to make other people more 'comfortable'. People who live their lives traped by political correctness.

                        I get angry...and I'll let you know it...if you call me 'handi-capable'. I'm not freaking capable of much when I'm in that chair. Gimme a break. If people want to make the disabled 'feel better'...quit with the labels and be polite enough to look the next wheelchair bound person you see in the eye instead. Start a conversation with them. They won't bite you.

                        It amazes me how many people avert their eyes or avoid conversation with someone in a chair. Yet those same people will come out with these ridiculous little PC labels like 'handicapable'

                        Am I schizophrenic too, Tyler?

                        • 6 votes
                        #18.8 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:37 AM EST
                        PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                        Pat N

                        Hey Pat race ya out the Vine oh Ya got me a 2nd chair a 5200 with removable arms the sucker is much faster & easy to use

                        Happened accross an article about a dude that made a chair cabable of 70mph...with stability. I've told everyone I know I want one for Christmas. lol. I want to zoom down the interstate, paintball gun in hand. Is someone hovering in the passing lane? (SPLAT!!) Does someone have their blinker on for 80 miles? (SPLAT!!)

                        Pat N & I agree the P.C. crap is getting well out of hand save it for children the adults just have to suck it up don't cha think ?

                        Yep. Especially when the ones being PC about the labels are the same ones who are rude about how they treat people. Sad thing is, they don't even seem to notice how they're treating people, either. Hint folks....we see you look away. We see you make a wiiiide berth around us.

                        I mean heck....I'm the hottest thing on 4 wheels! Strike up a conversation! lol!

                        • 4 votes
                        #18.10 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:19 AM EST
                        ohiogal-479871

                        I was told to call them 'indians' when I used 'native american' to describe a man named Chief

                        I get angry...and I'll let you know it...if you call me 'handi-capable'

                        I've always wondered, does it really add to the conversation by say [my asian/hispanic/black/white/homosexual/disabled/old friend named Tom did this] ?

                        Is it really that hard just to say, [my friend named Tom did this] ?

                        I think that's how people end up getting themselves in trouble. They use unnecessary descriptors and that will only upset the people they are describing.

                        Why? Because the person speaking is pretty much admitting to "Tom" what they think is important enough to distingish "Tom" from someone else.

                        On another note, instead of assuming, just simply ask! Everyone is different. Just like some Robs get pissed if you call the Robert and vice verse, just ask people what they want to be called.

                        I found it is far easier to respectan individual than use a label to describe them.

                        • 8 votes
                        #18.11 - Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:55 AM EST
                        PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                        tyler

                        IMO, Hemphills friend objected to the term 'Native American' for the same reason I object to 'handicapable' or 'differently-abled'.

                        I don't see the parallel, but then again, living with a disability and identifying/being identified as Native American [or 'Indian'] is not something I've experienced.

                        I get angry...and I'll let you know it...if you call me 'handi-capable'.

                        This seems inherently condescending [in a way that 'Native American' isn't]. I've never heard it. Most of my experience with people with disabilities is with blind, deaf, and deaf-blind people, and in those communities, there's not really any way to reinvent terms.

                        It amazes me how many people avert their eyes or avoid conversation with someone in a chair. Yet those same people will come out with these ridiculous little PC labels like 'handicapable'

                        Jerks.

                        However, I do want to say that if I used the term 'handicapable' in front of you, and you explained why you found it offensive, I would examine my use of the term and probably discontinue it. I wouldn't accuse you of being hypersensitive.

                        Am I schizophrenic too, Tyler?

                        I wasn't clear. I find the anecdotes of hemphill's friend to be...inconsistent. Calling them 'schizophrenic' is kind of medically presumptuous.

                        • 8 votes
                        #18.13 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:58 PM EST
                        Pat N

                        Jerks

                        I don't know if it's so much 'jerki-ness' as it is, a strange need to attach a warm and fuzzy label to a group of people that make a person 'uncomfortable'. What I mean by that, is I think people come up with condescending terms like 'handi-capable' as a way to make themselves feel better. Not necessarily the group they're talking about.

                        However, I do want to say that if I used the term 'handicapable' in front of you, and you explained why you found it offensive, I would examine my use of the term and probably discontinue it. I wouldn't accuse you of being hypersensitive.

                        Now I'm not trying to be snarky here...you know my style. I'm just blunt and it can come off as snarky in type. So with that said...would you consider me hypersensitive if I started an article about someone else who was a complete stranger to me, using the term and spent a few paragraphs talking about why it wasn't acceptable to me?

                        • 5 votes
                        #18.14 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:35 PM EST
                        tyler

                        I don't know if it's so much 'jerki-ness' as it is, a strange need to attach a warm and fuzzy label to a group of people that make a person 'uncomfortable'.

                        Averting your eyes from someone in a wheelchair is a jerk thing to do.

                        would you consider me hypersensitive if I started an article about someone else who was a complete stranger to me, using the term and spent a few paragraphs talking about why it wasn't acceptable to me?

                        No. I mean, you did do 'a few paragraphs' in 17.8, and now I have a new term to deconstruct. I'm gonna ask my dad about it tonight, actually, see what he thinks.

                        • 8 votes
                        #18.15 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:44 PM EST
                        Pat N

                        Averting your eyes from someone in a wheelchair is a jerk thing to do.

                        I agree..but I don't think there's any malicious intent. Here's the crazy thing...I'm only in this thing about 45-50% of the time. Aquaintences that I'll run into at the store or gas station will have no problem talking to me, looking me in the eye, giving me a handshake or a friendly grasp on the shoulder when I'm on my own two feet. Yet those same acquaintences will avert their eyes and act like they didn't even see me when I'm in the chair.

                        'Props' cause people mental anguish more or less. And I think that's the deal with the kid in your article. It's his usage of props that make him so offensive.

                        No. I mean, you did do 'a few paragraphs' in 17.8, and now I have a new term to deconstruct.

                        Yeah...but I didn't do it without provokation. So there. ☺

                        I'm gonna ask my dad about it tonight, actually, see what he thinks.

                        Let me know. Ask him about "differently-abled" too.

                        • 6 votes
                        #18.16 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:52 PM EST
                        PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                        Pat N

                        What I hate about it is that it immediately segregates anyone with a disability from the rest of society. It says: "You're still able. But you're different. You're not like 'normal' people."

                        One is condescending ('handi-capable') The other is just plain bigotry. ('differently-abled')

                        • 4 votes
                        #18.18 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:40 PM EST
                        hemphill

                        I find the anecdotes of hemphill's friend to be...inconsistent.

                        That's fair, he was a waffle house person, and waffle house and consistency are not big friends...

                          #18.19 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:58 PM EST
                          PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                          Pat N

                          Pat you should do a seed on this I'll hang with ya on this, love to hear what other Viners say as to just where those affected fit in to speak their mind as well on the subject of the impact of labels.

                          That's not a half bad idea. It could be a really good article, in fact. Thanks for the idea. Let me chew on what the content should be for a bit, and I'll work on getting one up.

                          • 5 votes
                          #18.21 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:13 PM EST
                          PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                          Pat N

                          You've got me thinking hard about this article. One question that came to my head is when does a 'description' cross the line into 'label'?

                          With how politically correct we've become as a nation, one mans descriptive term seems to be another mans label.

                          Here's a good one for you. I got called a 'liberal' tonight. Can you believe it? So would that be a 'description', a 'label' or a 'delusion'? =)

                          • 6 votes
                          #18.23 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:45 PM EST
                          Dennis P McCann

                          Here's a good one for you. I got called a 'liberal' tonight. Can you believe it? So would that be a 'description', a 'label' or a 'delusion'? =)

                          A compliment.

                          • 9 votes
                          #18.24 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:04 PM EST
                          Pat N

                          Smart ass.

                          I'm saying that with a smile, BTW.

                          • 9 votes
                          #18.25 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:10 PM EST
                          RAC 0129

                          Here's a good one for you. I got called a 'liberal' tonight. Can you believe it? So would that be a 'description', a 'label' or a 'delusion'? =)

                          A promotion. An improvement. A good start. Oh yeah ...... Bat@!$%# crazy

                          • 10 votes
                          #18.26 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:14 PM EST
                          magz

                          Okay people, let's get the term handicapped straight. Its like golf. You can tee the ball, hit the ball, but the course is designed to separate those who have skill from those who don't. How does that work in real life? Well, you can walk, but you can't run because of that bum right knee.

                          Now let's get to disability. Taking my previous example, you can't walk because you're paralyzed from the waist down, you could stand with help or something to hold onto, but the point is, what makes it possible for humans to walk, two legs that work, has been lost.

                          A handicap is something that hinders performance. Disability is the loss of function.

                          Race is not a disability, but may be a handicap, particularly if you are on the wrong end of the melanin content spectrum.

                          • 6 votes
                          #18.27 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:45 PM EST
                          Pat N

                          Okay people, let's get the term handicapped straight. Its like golf. You can tee the ball, hit the ball, but the course is designed to separate those who have skill from those who don't. How does that work in real life? Well, you can walk, but you can't run because of that bum right knee.

                          Which is exactly why 'handicapped' is A-OK. Handi-capable, isn't. It's a good analogy. How is someone who takes his golf seriously going to react if someone who is "better" than he is, tells him "It's OK. Your golf is worse than mine. So we'll give you and edge and call you 'capable!"

                          Now let's get to disability. Taking my previous example, you can't walk because you're paralyzed from the waist down, you could stand with help or something to hold onto, but the point is, what makes it possible for humans to walk, two legs that work, has been lost.

                          Correct, again. You're batting 1000. And if someone is paralysed from the waist down, they aren't very "able", are they. Heck...even they know this. Just because their legs don't function, doesn't mean their brain doesn't either. Which is why "differently-abled" is also a bunch of BS and 'disabled' is fine.

                          Race is not a disability, but may be a handicap, particularly if you are on the wrong end of the melanin content spectrum.

                          Correct. But the terms 'race', 'black', 'white' etc, are not demeaning terms invented for the sole purpose of making the person using them feel better. Also, melanin content being a handicap can swing both ways. Lesser melanin at an NAACP meeting or an AME church could also be a handicap, whereas if you have an amputated left leg, it's a handicap no matter what.

                          • 6 votes
                          #18.28 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:03 PM EST
                          magz

                          Which is exactly why 'handicapped' is A-OK.

                          Pat, there's nothing 'A-OK' with being handicapped. And yes, in life, there will always be someone better than you in golf, or Jeopardy.

                          ...if someone is paralysed from the waist down, they aren't very "able"...

                          No they're not Pat. They would be disabled, as in having lost the function of their legs, quite important, if you're trying to get from point A to point B without having to crawl.

                          ...the terms 'race', 'black', 'white' etc., are not demeaning terms...

                          Of course not Pat. All those terms are non-subjective nouns. They become subjective only in the context of history, which you could not possibly divorce from reality, because history, and its contextual nuances, are reality, as in I am here, and so are you, and we are debating.

                          • 4 votes
                          #18.29 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:16 AM EST
                          Pat N

                          Pat, there's nothing 'A-OK' with being handicapped.

                          Considering that I AM handicapped, I take umbrage to that statement.

                          I'm not sure we're on the same page here. Earlier in this discussion, we we're talking about labels. In that discussion, I stated that 'handi-capable' was a condescending term, but the term 'handicapped' was OK.

                          now you're telling me 'handicapped' ISN'T OK. Since I'm handicapped, I'm curious to hear why you think 'handi-capable' is OK but 'handicapped' isn't. Would you prefer 'cripple'?

                          • 6 votes
                          #18.30 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:38 AM EST
                          magz

                          Pat, take a chill pill. People trying to throw labels around about other people only confuse the landscape for other people who would not know otherwise. I'm not talking about labels, I'm talking about people. Being handicapped means that you have a medical issue that puts you at a disadvantage with a person who does not have any condition that would hinder total engagement with his environment.

                          For instance, blind people can't watch movies, or cross a street without being in danger of being run over, which is why any humane society would make concessions to such people, such as crosswalk traffic signals with audible prompts, because as a humane society we recognize the distinct experience of every individual even if we do not share the same experience.

                          And as such, don't tell me that putting on blackface is any more or less humorous than pretending you're blind just for laughs. Tell that to the blind guy trying to cross a street.

                          • 5 votes
                          #18.31 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:47 AM EST
                          magz

                          Oh, and if you reference Gene Hackman's hilarious performance as the blind guy serving soup to the monster in Mel Brook's Young Frankenstein, that was a movie that satirized Shelley's Halloween nightmare. From a crazy Jewish perspective.

                          Oy!

                          • 3 votes
                          #18.32 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:54 AM EST
                          Pat N

                          magz -

                          I'm just having a helluva time following what your post #17.7 has to do with what came before it in the thread. Can you clarify?

                          • 5 votes
                          #18.33 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:19 AM EST
                          Tiredofit-946833

                          I through out a new term !! (new to me) Normally-challenged !!! Now this term (IMHO) is a great one, since it can fit a very large spectrum of individuals. Individuals are "unique" and in being so what would "normal" qualify as ? Therefore we could say all are Normally-challenged, since we are all individuals !! I know, some times my thoughts just aint normal ! lol

                          • 4 votes
                          #18.34 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:46 AM EST
                          tyler

                          waffle house and consistency are not big friends

                          Waffling begets waffling? Makes sense.

                          • 2 votes
                          #18.35 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:29 PM EST
                          tyler

                          blind people can't watch movies

                          Okay, yes, technically true. However, many blind people love film. [Here's a blind movie reviewer whose 'A' rating says 'so good, even blind people like it'.] Dialogue-laden dramas and documentaries as opposed to action flicks, in my experience, but blind people can enjoy movies in their original form. Deaf folks probably would have been a better example.

                          • 8 votes
                          #18.36 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:41 PM EST
                          jfxgillis

                          magz:

                          Most excellent.

                          You appear to have given umbrage on a thread devoted to the taking of umbrage at others' having taken umbrage.

                          I can't tell you how much it pains me to quote the guy I'm about to quote as an authority, but he basically said it best with respect to all these sorts of disputes/conflicts/arguments.

                          Jim Rome was taking calls one day about Redskins/Indians/Seminoles/Braves, etc. as sports-team nicknames. Some dickhead of a Rush Limbaugh wannabe was waxing ignorant about political correctness, blah blah bull@!$%# blah blah. Rome simply said, quote: "It's not your call." Paraphrase: You don't get to decide whether other people's identities are being praised or insulted and whether they should feel proud or demeaned about the uses to which their identities are put. If they're good with it, I'm good with it. If they're not, I'm not. It's their call, not mine, not yours.

                          • 6 votes
                          #18.37 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:51 PM EST
                          magz

                          Pat, I think you meant mine at #17.27.

                          Once again, I do not appreciate the context of parsing handicapped, crippled, or whatever label it is that might be attached to someone so, well, handicapped. And before you connect handicapped with intelligence and free will, well, yes ma'am, there is/are no such connection/s. Some of the most hideously (and I use that adjective kindly) disabled people I have ever met posses an intelligence that transcends numbers, an emotional intelligence, if you will.

                          I particularly remember a child of 12, many years ago, who had a sustained a catastrophic brain injury when she was born. Spastic and drooling would come to mind if you saw her, and yet, when you played music, her face would transform into a smile so beatific it broke my heart into a million pieces. Had it not been for the brain injury, her face, lovely in every sense of then word, as in good enough for a Hollywood actress, would be in the dreams of many of young men.

                          C'est la vie.

                          If someone were to mock her by showing up in a wheelchair, drooling and babbling, I would be quite upset, and that's using the term mildly. Similarly, if some white guy, and let's just admit that a white guy could not possibly know what it would have been like to be black in Al Jonson's days (the subject of this article), I would also take exception to whatever humor he finds in that context.

                          By the way, young black men from the inner city continue to be incarcerated in record numbers. The population of urban ghettos remains largely colored. The education system that serves these neighborhoods are crippled (sorry for appropriating one of your terms), and healthcare is available only if you are an infant.

                          So you see, Pat, I don't find anything funny, innocuous, nor sophomoric about blackface. It's beneath stupid. It's willfully ignorant.

                          • 6 votes
                          #18.38 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:09 PM EST
                          magz

                          Apparently, tyler likes the audio guys better than the video guys (hmmm...wonder if that has anything to do with prior experience spinning vinyl...no, I wasn't one of the AV guys in HS, but I did want to steal one, ok, two of the speakers), but the point I was trying to make, and yes Jack, I read your usual cutting post (you probably have a terrific collection of kitchen knives), is that comparing blackface with a health condition is pretty much out there, as in, get the @!$%# out of here.

                          • 4 votes
                          #18.39 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:34 PM EST
                          jfxgillis

                          magz:

                          (you probably have a terrific collection of kitchen knives)

                          Well, there's the matter of the restraining order, the injunction, the probation office, the psychiatric diagnosis and parole officer limiting my ability to have pointy things nearby, but I would if I could.

                          • 8 votes
                          #18.40 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:41 PM EST
                          magz

                          Jack

                          . I don't why I like you, because you're just a grinning bastard...

                          • 4 votes
                          #18.41 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:48 PM EST
                          jfxgillis

                          magz:

                          It's my eyes. Something riveting, even haunting about them.

                          • 4 votes
                          #18.42 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:08 PM EST
                          tyler

                          I can't tell you how much it pains me to quote the guy I'm about to quote as an authority

                          What did you have to do to wrench your fingers into typing that?

                          • 9 votes
                          #18.43 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:35 PM EST
                          jfxgillis

                          tyler:

                          Fingers, not so bad. Clenched teeth on tongue is where it really hurt.

                          • 7 votes
                          #18.44 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:52 PM EST
                          PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                          Pat N

                          Once again, I do not appreciate the context of parsing handicapped, crippled, or whatever label it is that might be attached to someone so, well, handicapped. And before you connect handicapped with intelligence and free will, well, yes ma'am, there is/are no such connection/s.

                          Ummm...Magz? I'm handicapped.

                          • 4 votes
                          #18.46 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:32 PM EST
                          magz

                          Yes Pat. That much you've informed us. What is the point of stating that in the context of this seed, which references blackface?

                            #18.47 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:11 AM EST
                            Pat N

                            magz -

                            Go on back up through the thread and you'll see.

                            • 3 votes
                            #18.48 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:16 AM EST
                            PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                            Pat N

                            that said my feeling is when is copying a race ect. { the point of Tylers seed } become an insult to others not being germane to this when it is about respecting how others feel as well ?

                            Bingo. This particular thread in the article started off with how 'offensive' various labels can be. I believe the first example given was 'Indian' v 'Native American'. That led into 'handicapped' v 'handi-capable' or 'disabled' v 'differently-abled'.

                            Then, magz...you came along with pretty narrow definitions of each, stating a 'bum knee' (for example) made one handicapped whereas paralysis (for example) made one disabled.

                            I actually disagree with that assertation and more often refer to myself as disabled. Not handicapped. Even though my issues are more in line (as far as severity goes) with a bum knee than total paralysis.

                            But...and this is crucial...I applied the same label to myself that YOU applied (via your definition of the two) because I wanted to get back to the broader issue. In other words, I catipulated to your definition or 'label'.

                            So far, you haven't addressed your thoughts on 'handi-capable' or 'differently-abled'. You've only pidgeon-holed groups of people into "handicapped" or "disabled" based on your definition which seems to be based on severity. When in reality, many of us view the terms as interchangable.

                            In essence, this is a great example of what this thread is all about. The labels we place on others. Whether that label is 'Indian' or 'Handicapped'. When does something cross the line from descriptive to offensive label? When does a halloween costume cross the multiple lines from silly, to stupid to offensive?

                            • 8 votes
                            #18.50 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:31 AM EST
                            PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                            Pat N

                            I'd like to be called by my name

                            Hallelujah and amen.

                            But if you have to 'describe' me...for godssake, use handicapped or disabled. Don't use "handicapable' unless you want me to call you a 'midget' if you're short, a 'kike' if you're Jewish, a 'towelhead' if your Arab or the 'N-word' of you're black.

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.52 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:15 AM EST
                            magz

                            Christ. What the hell is difficult to understand here? Blackface is not a medical condition. Handicapped does not mean you are disabled. Handicapped is having a condition that impairs a particular function/s. As in having a torn medial meniscus and a partially torn anterior cruciate ligament (example of bum knee). Disabled implies the loss of function (walking, seeing, hearing, talking, etc.) due to the loss of a limb/s or organ/s, organ systems.

                            Blathering about labels only obfuscates issues. Wearing blackface is the issue here, not some sight seeing trip down the medical nomenclature.

                            • 4 votes
                            #18.53 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:16 AM EST
                            Pat N

                            Blackface is not a medical condition.

                            No one said it was.

                            Handicapped does not mean you are disabled. Handicapped is having a condition that impairs a particular function/s. As in having a torn medial meniscus and a partially torn anterior cruciate ligament (example of bum knee). Disabled implies the loss of function (walking, seeing, hearing, talking, etc.) due to the loss of a limb/s or organ/s, organ systems.

                            In who's book? Yours? What about people who have occasional...not permanent...motor function issues? Are they "cripples"? Because they don't fit into your neat little boxes anywhere. Also...why can't a person who fits your description of handicapped, not call themselves disabled? Should we take them out back and shoot them if they do? You seem really hellbent on pidgeon-holing people into the correct box, based on your view.

                            Blathering about labels only obfuscates issues. Wearing blackface is the issue here, not some sight seeing trip down the medical nomenclature.

                            You obviously failed to go back up and see the topic that this particular sub-thread was about. Believe it or not...that little "reply" button at the bottom isn't there solely for you to have a convenient place to jump in with anything. This particular sub-thread is indeed, about labels. If you don't like that...why did you participate in it instead of participatin g in a different thread?

                            • 8 votes
                            #18.54 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:34 AM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            PatN, I'm curious, I have several friends and family members who are "handicapped" and have no problem with "handicapable", in fact the majority of them use the term when referring to themselves. And I have always viewed as an extremely positive word. How is one to know it would offend another person? I mean you compared it to

                            'midget' if you're short, a 'kike' if you're Jewish, a 'towelhead' if your Arab or the 'N-word' of you're black.

                            Which just isn't valid because it is most certainly not common knowledge and all handicapped people do not dislike being called handicapable, in fact I have never heard of anyone who did until you. I absolutely respect that you don't like it, and if I knew you and used the term and you told me it was offensive to you, I most certainly would do my best to not use it when referring to you. I guess my base question is "how do you expect people who don't know you to know it is offensive to you?"

                            • 2 votes
                            #18.55 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:15 PM EST
                            ohiogal-479871

                            PatN, I'm curious, I have several friends and family members who are "handicapped" and have no problem with "handicapable",

                            Which goes back to my point. Everyone is different so do the simple thing. Be respectful and just ask.

                            • 7 votes
                            #18.56 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:23 PM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            My point, ohiogal, is that before PatN, I had no clue someone might find it offensive, so how would I have known to ask? I mean if you were going to ask someone "have you always been so smart?" would you ask them if they would be offended by being "labeled" smart before you said it?

                            • 1 vote
                            #18.57 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:36 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            I guess my base question is "how do you expect people who don't know you to know it is offensive to you?"

                            Ohiogal answered that point brilliantly right above this post.

                            But more to the point...why have we gotten to such extremes with political correctness in society and come up with so many different feel-good descriptive terms that people feel like they have to walk on eggshells and ask in the first place?

                            As for your relatives and friends who prefer the term, they may want to look it up. It's a slang term (obviously) and according to the urban dictionary...here's what it means. I'm sorry, but I don't find this complimentary:

                            http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Handicapable

                            1) Someone who is crippled or handicapped but takes offense at those terms and prefers "handicapable." Example: Adam tore his Achilles tendon and can't walk, but thinks he can. He says he's not handicapped, he claims to be handicapable.

                            2) An uppity cripple who thinks he's better than you.

                            • 7 votes
                            #18.58 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:38 PM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            Ohiogirl OR you did NOT answer the question in any way, shape or form! See my response to her to know why. And I'm sorry, I don't get my definitions from "urban dictionary". For so long, "handicapped" had a negative connotation, it shouldn't have, but it did. Then people started saying "handicapable" which, in my opinion, is far far better. (Which in no way suggests it should be to you.) So my question goes unanswered, and the fact remains that the labels you compared it to are completely invalid comparisons because those labels are widely known to be offensive, and handicapable is not. So again I ask, how is someone supposed to know that "handicapable" will offend you if they do not know you?

                            • 1 vote
                            #18.59 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:52 PM EST
                            magz

                            For the last time, and this from someone who has worked in the field of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation for the past 30 years. Handicapped and disabled are not interchangeable terms.A person with two knee replacements is handicapped. A person with spinal cord transection at the level of thoracic body 12 is disabled.

                            • 3 votes
                            #18.60 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:02 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            those labels are widely known to be offensive, and handicapable is not.

                            Handicapable, most certainly is a widely known offensive term. You're basing your experience on your own, narrow view of contact with your family and friends who apparently don't know the origins or meaning of the word.

                            So again I ask, how is someone supposed to know that "handicapable" will offend you if they do not know you?

                            So you're really going to make me repeat Ohiogals words? Seriously? OK...But she gets credit for it...."Ask them". I just think it's sad that we've gotten to the point in society where we feel like we have to do that, simply because so many feel-good terms have been invented for so many different things.

                            For future reference...some dislike the terms, "wheelchair-bound", "lame" and "spazz". I personally, have called many things 'lame' before and when a friend does something goofy, I have said "You are such a spazz".

                            Is any of this sinking in yet? We've become so hypersensitive as a society...with everyone pidgeon-holing everyone else into these neat little boxes that they may or may not want to even BE in to begin with...but we put them there anyway, because some portion of "society" tells us it's the right thing to do.

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.61 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:05 PM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            It is not widely known PatN, if it were, then I would have known it, just as I knew the others.

                            And for the last time, see my response to ohiogirls inaccurate answer, wait, I will post it for you:

                            I mean if you were going to ask someone "have you always been so smart?" would you ask them if they would be offended by being "labeled" smart before you said it?

                            I guess I'm not going to get an answer, that is fine. I was truly trying to get some perspective from you, but if you aren't willing to give it, then I can't force you.

                            • 1 vote
                            #18.62 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:10 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            Handicapped and disabled are not interchangeable terms.

                            (sigh....)

                            Straight from the medical dictionary...

                            http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/handicap

                            handicap,

                            n a disability that hinders effective function; may involve any combination of physical, emotional, or social factors.

                            • 7 votes
                            #18.63 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:10 PM EST
                            spiffie

                            Why are you so "hypersensitive" about handicapable?

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.64 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:11 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            I guess I'm not going to get an answer, that is fine. I was truly trying to get some perspective from you, but if you aren't willing to give it, then I can't force you

                            No need to get snarky. In fact, your snarkiness leads me to believe you aren't really seeking perspective from me. You are looking only to argue.

                            I'm not sure how much more clear I can make this. IF you are one who leans toward being exceptionally PC and truly worried about potentially 'offending' someone with a word, then.....ASK THEM. If you are not worried about offending someone and are willing to use whatever word you're comfortable with regardless of their reaction, then ....DON'T ASK THEM. It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

                            • 8 votes
                            #18.65 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:14 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            Why are you so "hypersensitive" about handicapable?

                            I don't know that I'd say I'm 'hypersensitive' about it. But I certainly don't like it. Because of (A) the definitions I posted in the link above and (B) because when I'm in that chair I'm not capable of a whole helluva lot. I know it, you know it and everyone else knows it. Heck...I can't even get my own freaking mug from the cupboard. lol. Therefore, 'handicapable' is a condescending term.

                            That aside...if you and I were to meet on the street and you introduced me as your 'handicapable friend, Pat N' to your sister, I wouldn't take offense enough to say anything about it or 'correct' you over something I would find trivial.

                            That point I'm trying to make here (and am obviously not succeeding at) is the label crazy society we've become. If you look up to the beginning of this thread, you'll see that I used 'handicapable' as an example. Most people use things they are familiar with as examples.

                            • 7 votes
                            #18.66 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:21 PM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            PatN - my intention was not to get snarky, I was simply being honest. One thing about me is I am always interested in hearing "the other side" of things, because I find different perspectives interesting. On an occasion or two, I have actually changed my mind due to hearing things from a different perspective.

                            • 2 votes
                            #18.67 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:28 PM EST
                            Dubbya R

                            ...if you and I were to meet on the street and you introduced me as your 'handicapable friend, Pat N' to your sister...

                            Sometimes labels are useful for passing relevant information quickly. But unfortunately too many people use them as a way to unnecessarily point out differences between people. It shouldn't be necessary to introduce a friend as either 'handi-capable' or 'handicapped', unless it's both relevant and not obvious.

                            If I introduced someone that way, I fully expect my sister the nurse, would give me a tongue-lashing on the spot, pointing out that she is neither stupid nor blind...but suspects I may be the former.

                            • 5 votes
                            #18.68 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:42 PM EST
                            tyler

                            PatN, I'm curious, I have several friends and family members who are "handicapped" and have no problem with "handicapable"

                            How the heck have I never heard this term? I've lived my whole life with a blind father and certainly haven't shied away from people with physical/sensory disabilities. *scratches head*

                            I think the closest I've heard is 'differently abled', which I've mostly heard/read used to sell toys to parents with kids on the autistic spectrum.

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.69 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:57 PM EST
                            VerbalBarb

                            How the heck have I never heard this term?

                            I've never heard it, either, Tyler.

                            • 2 votes
                            #18.70 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:28 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            I think the closest I've heard is 'differently abled',

                            Here's an interesting tidbit on that term...I dunno. Just kind of solidifies the whole label thing I've been talking about. Inthe link you provided...it's fine and dandy. Yet according to the link below, it's a term with negative connotations. We've gone kinda nuts as a society with the PC-ness, IMO.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disability-related_terms_with_negative_connotations

                          • "Differently abled". While it may have been originally intended to draw the attention from the person's disablily to an area where he or she excels (music, for example), it can come across as being patronizing or condescening toward that person.
                            • 7 votes
                            #18.71 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:34 PM EST
                            magz

                            Man, that is one stupid dictionary you've got there Pat, because if I follow yours and that dictionary's definition I'd be laughed out of the case conference of any Rehab Med ward within the city and many thousands of others throughout the country when I call the quadriplegic patient handicapped and the guy with arthritic knees disabled.

                            Just google for the ADA.

                            • 2 votes
                            #18.72 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:18 PM EST
                            tyler

                            I think 'differently abled' is douchey.

                            We've gone kinda nuts as a society with the PC-ness, IMO.

                            What I'm getting is that the problem isn't so much the mangled intent but that it arrives at being offensive. You identify as handicapped, but if someone called you that - 'handicapped' - with the intentions of being politically correct as possible [perhaps, like me, they just don't know about the apparently uber-PC 'handi-capable'], how would you know? The motive doesn't much matter if the end result is marginalizing/patronizing/douchey.

                            And here we go - 360! - I have no idea what the guy in blackface's motive was, but the act is unacceptable and I broke down why.

                            I think we're in the same lane in several respects, Pat N. Back when you were listing all the slurs to compare 'handi-capable' to, it occurred to me that it doesn't much matter how nice you intended a term [or costume] to be if it ends up being dehumanizing.

                            Let me know. Ask him about "differently-abled" too.

                            Forgot to ask but I'll be watching the Holiday Bowl with him tonight and I'll try to remember.

                            • 7 votes
                            #18.73 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:49 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            I think 'differently abled' is douchey.

                            LOL!! What a perfect word for it! But be careful! You might 'offend' militant feminine hygeine product users by calling it that! ☺

                            The motive doesn't much matter if the end result is marginalizing/patronizing/douchey.

                            But in the end, it's up to me how I react to it. The user of the word is not accountable for my reaction. If I let it bother me...I own that reaction. Not them.

                            And here we go - 360! - I have no idea what the guy in blackface's motive was, but the act is unacceptable and I broke down why.

                            I think we're on the same page in most respects on this...but where I differ with you is that this guy was obviously attention seeking. Trying to get a rise out of someone. It's not like he donned the blackface in order to pay some sort of misguided homage to the history of minstrel shows or something. He intentially tried to get a rise out of someone whereas someone calling me handicapable is trying to be PC. I'm guessing that if this kid had noble intentions, the reaction to him would have been far different.

                            But in the end...it STILL boils down to the fact that we all own our reactions. In this case, the kid tried to get a rise out of someone and most likely..succeeded. He was given what he wanted.

                            Forgot to ask but I'll be watching the Holiday Bowl with him tonight and I'll try to remember.

                            I really am curious to hear his response to both terms. My take is that people mean well...but it's belittling and (as you so eloquently phrased it) "douchey".

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.74 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:03 PM EST
                            PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                            Simplistic Reality

                            How the heck have I never heard this term?

                            First I've heard of it myself as well. Lol.

                            • 3 votes
                            #18.76 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:22 PM EST
                            magz

                            PNV, it's important for me because I am a rehab professional. I have been caring for people whose lives have been shattered by catastrophe for nearly thirty years. I would not be bragging if I told you that I've seen it all, from one year old babies paralyzed by TB of the spine to gung-ho high school athletes who blew out their knees to the 70 year old grandmother who had a stroke asking me, for her first question, if she would ever be able to dance again.

                            It's serious business, and the reason we in the profession demand the discipline of proper nomenclature is so that we know what each other is talking about, simply because it will have an impact on lives. I would never put down in a chart that a person with a handicap is disabled. That little piece of information will remain in his permanent record. If that disability had something to do with the person's mental condition, his life as a normal living human being is over.

                            I could give literally dozens of scenarios, all with varying impact, whether direct or indirect, but they all depend on my, and other's abilities to distinguish between those terms. That little dictionary entry has to be removed before some medical student takes it for truth.

                            • 4 votes
                            #18.77 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:34 PM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            Hey magz, off topic (sorry tyler) but what kind of rehab professional are you? I have a grandson who is now 19 months old who is a SBS survivor (3 weeks old when it happened) who has some significant brain damage and a vp shunt, but so far he is functioning "normally" (he is a true miracle!). I am always interested in talking with anyone who has worked with SBS survivors to get information, input, suggestions, etc. We are all working hard to help him be the best he can be, and are always researching, etc. I would be very interested in hearing from you if you have that kind of experience.

                            • 1 vote
                            #18.78 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:25 PM EST
                            tyler

                            But in the end, it's up to me how I react to it. The user of the word is not accountable for my reaction. If I let it bother me...I own that reaction. Not them.

                            Drifting to the outside lane on this, because while I agree with in principle, this veers toward the guardrail of 'no action is unacceptable because people can/should control their reactions'. I think it makes a lot of sense for you to take umbrage to 'handi-capable' now that you've explained it and I [duh] think it makes sense for me to condemn blackface/color-donning.

                            this guy was obviously attention seeking. Trying to get a rise out of someone.

                            someone calling me handicapable is trying to be PC.

                            How do you know? I always find it so much easier to have a 'what you did' conversation than a 'who you are' [or in this case, 'what you meant'] conversation. [cf. Jay Smooth]. [<--- best use of videoblog ever?]

                            He was given what he wanted.

                            I think it's unreasonable to assume he didn't want 450 comments about it, but maybe I should invite him to Newsvine.

                            • 5 votes
                            #18.79 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:26 PM EST
                            PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                            Soosalah

                            Never heard that term used before, either.

                            Plus, I don't think any of us will ever be completely safe knowing what is or isn't acceptable. Someone is always going to be overly-sensitive, insulted, obviously they will be irritated, and end up angered.

                            It would be nice if when a word is used, and someone feels uncomfortable with that word, they simply "ask" that person to not use the word when speaking to them. However, if that word is used before they enter the conversation, and no one yet has complained about the word, they should remain quiet and ask via email or in a private conversation.

                            There is a definite tension in the air on this thread, when there shouldn't be.

                            As far as the blackface issue goes, someone needs to knock on Hollywood's door, first.

                            • 2 votes
                            #18.81 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:28 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            Drifting to the outside lane on this, because while I agree with in principle, this veers toward the guardrail of 'no action is unacceptable because people can/should control their reactions'.

                            Nah. No really. Lets say you've been pretty cut off from society or something...or for some other reason, your upbringing didn't include solid training in social etiquette. lets say you and I met. If you said to me in the utmost sincerity: "Well by golly! Yer a crippled chick!" I'd probably laugh and say "Yep. I am". Because quite frankly..you didn't know any better. You meant no insult. You are responsible for your actions...I am responsible for my reactions and we were both sincere.

                            Now for scenario two. You have the social etiquette upbringing that you most likely had. We meet. You look down your nose at me, sneer and say: "Oh. You're a crippled chick". I have two options at that point. I can try and run over your toes or I can choose to not give you the reaction you're looking for. YOU own your actions...I own my reactions.

                            Context is everything.

                            We own our actions as well as our reactions. And for most of society, we have a solid idea of right v wrong and govern our behavior accordingly.

                            Just like our blackface dude. Like I said earlier, when this article was first up...was it stupid and misguided? Most definately. But he owns that. And we don't know what motivated him. Was he raised by neanderthals and sincerely thought his get up was "funny"? Was he being malicious intentionally?

                            You know...I'd like to ask him that. Get his butt over here to NV. ☺

                            • 4 votes
                            #18.82 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:39 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            Man, that is one stupid dictionary you've got there Pat

                            Magz - Here are the definitions I could find for 'handicap' and the sources:

                            A) handicap /hand·i·cap/ (han´dĭ-kap) any physical or mental defect, congenital or acquired, preventing or restricting a person from participating in normal life or limiting their capacity to work.

                            - Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

                            hand·i·cap (hnd-kp)
                            n.
                            A physical, mental, or emotional condition that interferes with one's normal functioning.

                            - The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved

                            handicap,
                            n a disability that hinders effective function; may involve any combination of physical, emotional, or social factors.

                            Mosby's Dictionary, 2nd edition. © 2008 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

                            handicap
                            Social medicine Any of a broad range of physical and mental disabilities which substantially limit a person's major life abilities and opportunities. See Americans with Disabilities Act, Disability.

                            -McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

                            Now. Do I take the word of one self proclaimed rehab professional? Or four medical dictionaries and the ADA? Hmmm...let me think about this one. Tough decision.

                            Now

                            • 5 votes
                            #18.83 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:05 PM EST
                            PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                            Pat N

                            PNV -

                            Yep. A can't ever remember a physician or medical care employee telling me I'm "wrong" with how I choose to describe myself. Now I have some nameless, faceless, stranger on a blog doing it. Go figure.

                            As a side note...it's my Neurologist that taught me how to pop a wheelie. ☺

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.85 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:32 PM EST
                            PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                            tyler

                            Ah, here we have a philosophical difference.

                            Now for scenario two. You have the social etiquette upbringing that you most likely had. We meet. You look down your nose at me, sneer and say: "Oh. You're a crippled chick". I have two options at that point. I can try and run over your toes or I can choose to not give you the reaction you're looking for.

                            Sure, I see those as the two most likely options in that scenario, but here...

                            No really. Lets say you've been pretty cut off from society or something...or for some other reason, your upbringing didn't include solid training in social etiquette. lets say you and I met. If you said to me in the utmost sincerity: "Well by golly! Yer a crippled chick!" I'd probably laugh and say "Yep. I am". Because quite frankly..you didn't know any better. You meant no insult. You are responsible for your actions...I am responsible for my reactions and we were both sincere.

                            I don't think it's my responsibility to educate this person but I feel a strong inclination, maybe even obligation, to. If someone labels me in a way that I don't identify with, I let them know they've got me wrong. If they smear me with a derogatory term for one of my on-sight demos [I dunno what the equivalent for 'cripple' would be - 'pickaninny'? 'queer'?] I'll let them know they've got a whole lot wrong.

                            Your reaction's all well and good for you and there are probably some legitimate experiential reasons for it. But I'm tall and loud and used to confrontation.

                            • 7 votes
                            #18.87 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:23 PM EST
                            spiffie

                            But I'm tall and loud and used to confrontation.

                            Fess up: that was in your job application, wasn't it?

                            • 5 votes
                            #18.88 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:39 PM EST
                            Pat N

                            But I'm tall and loud and used to confrontation.

                            Yeah. But you're thin. And unitimidating. And a little on the clean cut side. ☺

                            Those things cancel out tall and loud.

                            I think it really boils down to "choose your battles wisely"..and you choose differently different battles than I do.

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.89 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:47 PM EST
                            spiffie

                            and you choose differently different battles than I do.

                            Woo hoo. We agree!

                            • 6 votes
                            #18.90 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:53 PM EST
                            magz

                            That's right PNV. I am a rehap professional. A practicing Physical Therapist in fact. All of my contentions stand. A disability is a loss of function. A handicap is a condition that impairs performance in a specified activity. This distinction was instilled in me from from day one.

                            There is no direct relationship, as in if you speak only English and found yourself in the middle of Tokyo, you could call your problem a handicap, but no one could call you disabled, as your faculty for spoken language is intact.You'd just need lessons in Japanese.

                            On the other hand, if you suffered a stroke and a small segment of your cerebral cortex on the dominant hemisphere (the left hemisphere for right-handed people), the segment just anterior to the Sylvian fissure, your capacity for language would be lost, hence a loss of function, ergo a disability. No amount of language lessons will return that gift to you after such an event.

                            Or you could be born deaf, from a hereditary, genetic defect. That would not be a loss of ability, but a genetic impairment. The area in your brain responsible for language functions with all languages, including American sign language (Ameslan). Hence, you are not disabled, but handicapped, as you are certainly capable of communicating, just that you can't yell out your bile at someone when you feel the need to. Just like that non Nippongo speaking American tourist in Tokyo. Somewhat.

                            Why is such a distinction necessary? I've tried to explain. I'll try again. In my early years I had the opportunity to work with cardiologist who had the unfortunate fate of being diagnosed with Duchenne Muscle Dystrophy. It is a progressive disease that essentially turns muscle into fat or scar tissue. The progression may become so virulent that the person dies before they reach their third decade of life.

                            This cardiologist was special because he had survived well into his fifth decade. To this day, I have yet to encounter one who has survives as long.There is a price to pay, however. the muscle wasting start in the calves and rises inexorably up, to your thighs, your hips, your shoulders and eventually to your neck. By this time, even the task of breathing and coughing is compromised, and most die overwhelmed by pneumonia.

                            Well one day, I attended a case conference run by this cardiologist, because the patient was also mine. At he end of the conference he motioned me to his side (was sitting close by) and started his laborious process of getting to his feet. My reaction was reflexive, after all, part of my training is assist, instruct, and ensure the safety of the weak and injured who are attempting to get on their own feet. I instinctively reached for his left shoulder with my right hand and prepared my left to stabilize his pelvis.

                            He slapped both my hands away and with a wave of his right arm then gruffly told me to "just stand by me". That proud old man then basically used my right arm for a rope as he pulled himself up, right hand over left, to standing.

                            I do not think the old man would have me classify him as disabled. He might have gruffly agreed to handicapped though.

                            • 2 votes
                            #18.91 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:43 PM EST
                            ohiogal-479871

                            My point, ohiogal, is that before PatN, I had no clue someone might find it offensive, so how would I have known to ask

                            Jesus, werinasadstate, it's called manners.

                            In the first place you don't run around calling people out of their name. Trust me it's a lot easier saying, Pat, then figuring out what label you can place on her.

                            Now if you are placed in a situation, I don't know, where you and Pat was going out and you needed to make sure you didn't end up making plans at some ancient place that is down a million stairs with no elevators, ramps, guardrails or lights, you could simply be polite and say

                            "Hey, Pat, I don't want to offend you, but I need to make a reservation. I'm not sure the words to use in this situation, can you help me out?"

                            The vast majority of people are reasonable and would answer you as long as you are respectful. People are offended by the lack of respect.

                            • 5 votes
                            #18.92 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:25 AM EST
                            werinasadstate

                            Still didn't answer my question ohiogirl, wonder why that is? No matter, it's getting old now, so I give up.

                              #18.93 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:38 AM EST
                              Sir Richard Owen

                              Still didn't answer my question ohiogirl, wonder why that is? No matter, it's getting old now, so I give up.

                              Self-Handicapping.

                              I had no clue someone might find it offensive

                              Failure to recognize and understand that there is a dialect continuum. What might be acceptable words in your sphere of awareness could be objectionable somewhere else in the continuum, where there are vernacular variations in vocabulary, grammar, and orthography.

                              if you were going to ask someone "have you always been so smart?"

                              Could be facetious and rude, or affectionate, depending on the situation.

                              Nobody of any merit labels Steven Hawking as handicapped.

                              • 6 votes
                              #18.94 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:39 PM EST
                              ohiogal-479871

                              Still didn't answer my question ohiogirl, wonder why that is? No matter, it's getting old now, so I give up

                              You are acting like you are giving up now, but truthfully, you gave up listening before you even wrote your question. I"ve answered it, pat's answered it, we all have answered your question. As #17.94 points out, the answer is just what you don't want to hear.

                              We can't teach you manners in an online forum. These are things you should have learned while growing up. It is a social skill to know when to say things, how to say things, and when to keep your mouth shut. You should know by now, that the way you speak around your family and friends, can be interpreted as being rude around your boss and coworkers, and even more so to a total stranger.

                              To paraphrase an above post, this is America and if you want to be an ass and offend someone, then more power to you. That is your right.

                              However, if you really are concerned about offending people, and you haven't developed the social skills that allow you the wisdom to know how not to offend, then your best bet is to speak on formal terms with everyone you meet.

                              • 2 votes
                              #18.95 - Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:04 PM EST
                              Reply
                              ThreeCents

                              If I ended up a party and someone showed up in black face, I'd avoid them and but not forget that, of all things, is what they chose to do with the thought that it would be funny. I'd remember it for a long time and I wouldn't be pleasant memory of them for me. My feelings are based on the part of US history that I am not proud of. The white face is just a bad argument doesn't work for me because it doesn't have the historical context and so I do not feel the same way about it. That is an honest as I can put it.

                              • 7 votes
                              Reply#19 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:01 AM EST
                              Darrah, Greenville, SC

                              Either the guy was extremely ignorant or he knew exactly what he was doing and was intentionally being offensive. I'm telling you, the picture was scary in a bad way.

                              Not that it matters, but I'm white and Native American. Well, yes it does matter, becuase I've seen too many times where actors were painted up as Indians and it's offensive to see. Believe it or not, Indians can act.

                              • 11 votes
                              Reply#20 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:20 AM EST
                              Tony Wlliams

                              Some things are just not acceptable. Race donning is one of them. The person doing it might not think it's a big deal but how they feel vs the person standing beside or in front of them of that race is. I'll put it this way...You wouldn't buy your Jewish friend a Swastika as a gift would you.

                              • 10 votes
                              Reply#21 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:11 AM EST
                              PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                              JaiAllen

                              It's all satire. White men in blackface , black men in whiteface. Doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the evil behind the mask.

                              We're in the 21st century and there is little cultural sensitivity left. People make much ado about a bunch of nothing.

                              • 5 votes
                              Reply#23 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:53 AM EST
                              magz

                              I am not satire, I can do satire, but have no intention to do satire for the heck of it. That would not be satire. That would be me being stupid.

                              • 3 votes
                              #23.1 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:22 AM EST
                              Reply
                              Well who knew that?

                              Just to keep things in perspective in the year 2010, this is a JAW DROPPING list of some of the most FAMOUS people who have ever contributed greatly to SOCIETY and the ridicules, put downs, and REJECTIONS (even by their SCHOOL TEACHERS!) they suffered BEFORE they became so prominent. The list is endless- so don't let anyone "rent space in your head."

                              http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/efficacynotgiveup.html

                              • 2 votes
                              Reply#24 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:24 AM EST
                              hmhh80Deleted
                              CruiseBoogerExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

                              I just read this article and do not understand it. Was this written by a handicap child? The boy in the picture with the album is wearing black face? It looks so real.

                              • 3 votes
                              #26 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:29 AM EST
                              magz

                              Uh, it's handicapped. And I think you need glasses because you're visually challenged.

                              • 3 votes
                              #26.1 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:50 AM EST
                              tyler

                              CruiseBooger

                              Damn. Not what I was looking for. CruiseBooger banned, multiple of Acapulco Kevin, also banned.

                              First comment was today after almost a month of almost exclusively visiting Acapulco Kevin's column after the Acapulco Kevin account was logged off, voting up comments. Slick.

                              ...

                              I had a lot of questions, too.

                              • 14 votes
                              #26.2 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:31 PM EST
                              alexab-614

                              damn he got banned???!

                                #26.3 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:41 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                He spent the last couple days trolling the site moderator. Seemed the likely outcome.

                                • 10 votes
                                #26.4 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:45 PM EST
                                PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                Justme-517872

                                I was curious about the rules on stalking the moderators. I didn't want to slam too hard since he said his sister just passed but that dude had some serious obsessive issues going with Tyler. I know Tyler is cool and all but dayum!

                                • 7 votes
                                #26.6 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:06 PM EST
                                magz

                                I generally don't like talking ill of someone who isn't present, but damn, look up at the threads in this article, that guy was really annoying. Being accused of being stupid and alluded to as a sinner at the same time is one of the weirdest things I've ever experienced on NV.

                                • 5 votes
                                #26.7 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:23 PM EST
                                VerbalBarb

                                I was curious about the rules on stalking the moderators. I didn't want to slam too hard since he said his sister just passed but that dude had some serious obsessive issues going with Tyler. I know Tyler is cool and all but dayum!

                                I think Tyler was extremely patient with the whole harrassment thing (that's how I saw it) - I was seriously getting concerned, and I wasn't even in Kevin's sites. I'm sorry he blew it; I thought he'd get over what I hoped was just two or three days of aberrant behavior due to his recent loss. I thought he was getting past it with the kitty thread. =0/

                                • 10 votes
                                #26.8 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:41 PM EST
                                tyler

                                He spent the last couple days trolling the site moderator. Seemed the likely outcome.

                                To be clear, Acapulco Kevin's banned for multiple accounts, not for calling me a racist or derailing about me over here.

                                ...

                                I was looking forward to picking through their stance that I can't work on the internet without being anonymous/while having a web presence outside of where I work. It was really fascinating to me and I hoped they'd get around to actually engaging me about it.

                                • 9 votes
                                #26.9 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:53 PM EST
                                menmy2

                                Wow!! LOL!!

                                Raising hell about NV while violating one of the EASIEST rules to abide by. For shame. . .

                                • 4 votes
                                #26.10 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:09 PM EST
                                cant touch this-2813875Deleted
                                Isabella-37

                                "I was banned after posting this article at 2:30 in the morning."

                                Good riddance to yet another mentally unstable troll.

                                • 4 votes
                                #26.12 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:54 PM EST
                                cant touch this-2813875Deleted
                                VerbalBarb

                                Earlier in the evening I had an article about Kitties. It was in the Columnist tracker at the same time Tyler had his Black Face article running. H was angry that I had more votes and comments.

                                This is utter bull@!$%#.

                                Sorry, Kevin, but you've been seeing slights and conspiracies that don't exist. No sane attorney would take any of these accusations seriously, especially after seeing how you've pretty much stalked and harrassed Tyler all over NV, and now your threatening to do it in real life by going to Seattle? You need to get a grip.

                                • 7 votes
                                #26.14 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:03 PM EST
                                VerbalBarb

                                Please know that your Newsvine account has been temporarily suspended until Dec 18 2010 12:23AM PST for violating the Newsvine Code of Honor (COH) #1..

                                And then Tyler discovered a second account for you and you were banned.

                                • 7 votes
                                #26.15 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:08 PM EST
                                cant touch this-2813875Deleted
                                Tony Wlliams

                                Maybe I'm slow but after getting yourself banned for multiple accounts why in the hell would you come back with another one? Seems to me that your claim of wanting to sue Tyler just fell short. You see we have laws now on cyber stalking and you might have just given not just Tyler but the Owner/Owners of Newsvine a reason to sue you cant-touch-this

                                • 6 votes
                                #26.17 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:34 PM EST
                                AustinSDeleted
                                tyler

                                For fun and/or spite? While re-regging is against the TOS/UA it is not illegal.

                                Yep.

                                For the record, it is damn near impossible to sue Newsvine. When you sign up you agree to this. It's pretty ironclad. It's got a 'we can do whatever we want' passage:

                                Newsvine further reserves the right (each in its sole discretion) to screen, edit, modify, remove or disable access to any User Content that violates these provisions or that Newsvine deems objectionable.

                                [Not that we do whatever we want, but we could.]

                                • 10 votes
                                #26.19 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:28 PM EST
                                Reply
                                scubaguy011246Deleted
                                Pat N

                                There are a few Wiccans that post on NV. And I'd like to ask:

                                Does little girls dressing up as witches at Halloween "offend" you? I'm thinking not. It would seem to me that if a person is truly comfortable within their religion/spirituality (or skin tone) someone dressing up at Halloween would not be offensive. And I have yet to hear of a Wiccan being offended by little green-skinned witches running around one night a year.

                                But now that I know it's supposed to be offensive, I'll try to remeber to be offended next Halloween when I see someone using a wheelchair as a prop. Can someone remind me, please?

                                Sorry, Tyler. But this just seems a little hypersensitive. If the teens were dressed as blacks, had metal collars around each others necks, had faux whip marks on their backs and balls chained to their ankles...then you might have a case. But dressing as they did...I think it's a stretch.

                                • 9 votes
                                #28 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:23 PM EST
                                Chasing

                                I'm thinking not.

                                I know several Wiccans who find it to be offensive, actually, though I know several Wiccans who don't, as the "witchcraft" portrayed with those costumes actually has nothing at all to do with that practiced by actual Wiccans, nor do they feel that they are at all a target of the costumes - no-one is dressing up as a Wiccan, but rather as the Wicked Witch of the West, or what have you. If a Wiccan were to dress up as a "witch", they wouldn't just go out in their everyday clothes - or likely any clothes in their closet, come to that. Which is not to say that there's equivalency there, as I'm not sure that there is. The point remains: no-one should be surprised that blackface is offensive to many, regardless of whether or not they think it should be. It is societally frowned upon. If you wish that to change then by all means, change society's impression, but just going out in blackface one day is putting the cart before the horse.

                                • 7 votes
                                #28.1 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:31 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                There seems to be a concerted effort to divorce the act from its context by some. It's a shame really because the context about _why— blackface in particular is offensive is interesting to discuss. Tyler actually did a good job pointing out that it's offensive because of he denigrating tone of the minstrel show aspect. That's certainly not he case with witches (independent o whether practitioners of Wicca should identify with same) because witches if anything are traditionally _empowered— roles.

                                • 4 votes
                                #28.2 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:45 PM EST
                                Pat N

                                To the Wiccan part of your post:

                                Allow me, if you will...to use another example. Are Native Americans "offended" by little kids that dress up in war paint, with a feather sticking out of a headband and a plastic tomahawk?

                                The point remains: no-one should be surprised that blackface is offensive to many, regardless of whether or not they think it should be. It is societally frowned upon.

                                OK. So if I'm hearing you right, everyone should worry about what they decide to wear for Holloween because someone, somewhere might be offended and we are all somehow responsible for the feelings of total strangers that we may or may not run into on the street. Right? Another popular costume at Halloween is Hitler. Far more "offensive" than blackface, in my book. Yet I don't hear anyone saying "Don't wear a Hitler costume. You may offend a Jew." Then there are the military costumes. Better not wear those. Might offend a real vet. How about the 'sexy nurse' costumes? It's a stereotype that goes a long way back, it's belittling to the profession and some real nurses might take offense.

                                Bottom line is that Halloween is about dressing up as something/someone you aren't. it's pretending to be someone else one night a year. To automatically assume malicious or nefarious intent because someone else is "offended" seems over the top.

                                When did we become this hypersensitive, anyway?

                                • 7 votes
                                #28.3 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:48 PM EST
                                Pat N

                                Tyler actually did a good job pointing out that it's offensive because of he denigrating tone of the minstrel show aspect.

                                I would agree that he did. But by the same token, minstrel shows ended long ago. That chaper in life has closed and we have become wise to the repercussions of it.

                                However, I'm doubting that a 17 year old kid...even if he's aware that minstrel shows existed, fully understands the impact of them. Any more so than a 7 year old dressing as a brave understands the hell Native Americans went through.

                                It doesn't appear the kid had minstrel shows in mind to begin with. More like rap musicians.

                                • 6 votes
                                #28.4 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:54 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                Wow, lots of typos. That will teach me to try to answer from my iPhone in a moving car (I wasn't driving).

                                • 3 votes
                                #28.5 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:26 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                So if I'm hearing you right, everyone should worry about what they decide to wear for Holloween because someone, somewhere might be offended and we are all somehow responsible for the feelings of total strangers that we may or may not run into on the street.

                                Generally speaking: yes. Look, you're perfectly free (free as in freedom) to walk around being a dick to people. And others are just as free to take offense. Whether you want to be known or be seen as a dick is completely up to you, but when someone acts like a dick, they shouldn't be surprised to be called on it.

                                • 6 votes
                                #28.6 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:28 PM EST
                                Pat N

                                Generally speaking: yes

                                Seriously? You truly believe we've come to the point in society that freedom of expression should be sqaushed because of what it might do to someone else's feelings? Wow. Last time I checked, freedom of expression was a constitutionally protected right. And there was no right to not be offended.

                                Look, you're perfectly free (free as in freedom) to walk around being a dick to people. And others are just as free to take offense. Whether you want to be known or be seen as a dick is completely up to you, but when someone acts like a dick, they shouldn't be surprised to be called on it.

                                "Dickishness" is ambiguous. What I may find "dickish" you may find "cool". That's why it's dangerous to say that people are somehow responsible for other peoples reactions/feelings. What if, as a female, I find french maid costumes degrading to women and you show up at a Holloween party in (or with someone who is in) a French Maid costume? Who is responsible for me being offended? You or me?

                                • 7 votes
                                #28.7 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                Seriously?

                                Yeah, seriously. I'm not saying order your entire life around it as an organizing principle, but a little common courtesy and respect is generally appreciated by most people in most walks of life. It's completely up to you to determine what degree of courtesy you express in daily life, of course, but if you regularly make a habit out boorish or grossly inappropriate behavior, I'm not sure you should expect anything other than social pushback.

                                You truly believe we've come to the point in society that freedom of expression should be sqaushed because of what it might do to someone else's feelings?

                                Depends on who's doing the squashing. Would I argue that it should be mandated by statute? No, absolutely I wouldn't. But we're not talking about statute; we're talking social mores and values. Those are two very different things (although there are certainly intersections, on occasion).

                                Wow. Last time I checked, freedom of expression was a constitutionally protected right. And there was no right to not be offended.

                                Look, if you want to just ignore the pretty significant point where I said "Look, you're perfectly free (free as in freedom) to walk around being a dick to people," that's up to you. I allowed that people are free to do so. Try arguing something we don't agree on. I'm not your straw man.

                                What I may find "dickish" you may find "cool".

                                Uh huh, we're in perfect agreement.

                                That's why it's dangerous to say that people are somehow responsible for other peoples reactions/feelings.

                                It's only "dangerous" in so far as there are legal consequences attached to dickishness, and generally I oppose such on principle. If you want to be rude to me, go for it. Don't be surprised when I'm rude right back to you.

                                Or, to put it another way, there are actions I take to express common courtesy because I generally don't want to go around offending people just because I'm too much of a prick to give any thought to the feelings of others (i.e. I'm not a sociopath). An example is that I typically try very hard to capitalize God (and related nouns and pronouns) in discussions about Christianity. I do this not because I'm Christian (I'm not), but because I view it as a (very tiny) sign of respect to the people I'm talking to. I'm perfectly capable of giving as good as I get, but I try to not to give disrespect simply for disrespect's sake.

                                What if, as a female, I find french maid costumes degrading to women and you show up at a Holloween party in (or with someone who is in) a French Maid costume? Who is responsible for me being offended? You or me?

                                Me. "There's a time and a place." If I'm entering a context where either I know such won't be appreciated or I don't know the context beforehand, I err on the side of respect.

                                There are jokes and comments and behaviors I'll express within circles of close friends or within circles of people I'm familiar with and whose senses of humor and propriety I'm familiar with that I wouldn't express otherwise. That just seems to me to be common sense.

                                It's not like this is even an especially controversial system of behaviors. The same general principles are usually expressed via workplace harassment policies in virtually all medium and large organizations, whether public or private.

                                Welcome to living with other people in a complex society; glad to have you.

                                • 5 votes
                                #28.8 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:37 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                Who is responsible for me being offended? You or me?

                                Me. "There's a time and a place."

                                Wow. That's interesting... and I have the complete opposite point of view in regards to the responsibility angle.

                                People's actions/inactions are a reflection of them, not me. I don't own the inside of their head. I'm either offended or I'm not - but both reactions are my own responsibility.

                                (Sorry to interrupt this string, just find it fascinating...)

                                • 5 votes
                                #28.9 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                That's interesting... and I have the complete opposite point of view in regards to the responsibility angle.

                                Investigate doctrines related to hostile work environments. I'm not going to say how you should live your life in purely personal, private contexts, but if you take that stance in most states you'll find it's a philosophy that will find short shrift.

                                • 6 votes
                                #28.10 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:03 PM EST
                                jfxgillis

                                spiff:

                                All this right-wing whining about the right to give offense wouldn't be so offensive if not for all the right-wing whining taking offense: Merry @!$%#ing Christmas, @!$%#.

                                • 7 votes
                                #28.11 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:27 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                Ha, right? Where's that consistency we were promised? ;)

                                • 5 votes
                                #28.12 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:28 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                Investigate doctrines related to hostile work environments.

                                I think that we're on different wavelengths here, and I don't want to misunderstand you. My mindset wasn't at "work" when reading this. Work environments have their own set of "rules" so to speak, norms in place. The majority of which is common sense (to me).

                                But unless something literally breaks the law (i.e. - sexual harassment, theft, fraud, etc), I don't have the time or energy to get hung up on it.

                                Definitely don't go out of my way to be an utter bonehead, nor do I much appreciate the company of those that do. I don't look for ways to feel insulted or "heart" overly uptight people. Getting along with people is pretty easy to do, without a lot of energy involved.

                                I probably display "agreeable" behavior as a matter of course, just because it's what works. But if someone demanded a specific behavior of me, against my own nature - to accommodate their own securities/prejudices/biases, I'd pretty much feel a "kiss my ass" moment comin' on.

                                I view the increasingly narrow definition of "politically correct" as societal stupidity.

                                • 6 votes
                                #28.13 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:03 PM EST
                                tyler

                                Are Native Americans "offended" by little kids that dress up in war paint, with a feather sticking out of a headband and a plastic tomahawk?

                                Yeah, many of them seem to find similarly stereotypical costumes disrespectful. Adrienne K compares wearing headdresses and feathers to blackface in this piece.

                                "Playing Indian" has a long history in the United States, all the way back to those original tea partiers in Boston, and in no way is it better than minstral shows or dressing up in blackface. You are pretending to be a race that you are not, and are drawing upon stereotypes to do so. Like my first point said, you're collapsing distinct cultures, and in doing so, you're asserting your power over them.

                                I'd never consider dressing up as an 'Indian' for Halloween, and I've had some discussions with people who did about how I thought it was inappropriate.

                                • 13 votes
                                #28.14 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:16 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                Work environments have their own set of "rules" so to speak, norms in place. The majority of which is common sense (to me).

                                I think we're vibing on similar wavelengths. What I'm trying to point out is that norms exist in every environment, even if the consequences in some environments are necessarily only social. The norms are different in social settings than they are in work settings, of course. And norms can vary from group to group (even if two groups share some members between them). How one acts at their parents' house is very different than how one acts a house party thrown by a good friend. There will always be social expectations regardless of environment, even though those expectations vary by context.

                                Getting along with people is pretty easy to do, without a lot of energy involved.

                                Agreed, for most people.

                                I probably display "agreeable" behavior as a matter of course, just because it's what works.

                                There's certainly an element of practicality to at least acknowledging social mores. I don't think it's any accident that tit-for-tat is one of the most successful general strategies in game theory.

                                But if someone demanded a specific behavior of me, against my own nature - to accommodate their own securities/prejudices/biases, I'd pretty much feel a "kiss my ass" moment comin' on.

                                Sure. Also, I think that--just because of the general direction that this discussion has taken--I'm not being necessarily clear of the totality of what I believe in this area. Respect is a two way street, absolutely, and there are limits to what I'd accept as a reasonable accommodation to someone else's feelings. I might be willing to capitalize God (and similar) out of respect for Christian's feelings, but I think insisting I say Merry Christmas is a little silly.

                                There are definitely people who try to transform the modicum of social respect the average person is willing to extent to them into a sense of entitled privilege, and that's clearly too far a swing of the pendulum in the opposite direction.

                                Or, to reference more explicitly a modern truism, obey Wheaton's Law.

                                • 7 votes
                                #28.15 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:16 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                I think that--just because of the general direction that this discussion has taken--I'm not being necessarily clear of the totality of what I believe in this area.

                                I'm with you on that. Sometimes my posts are too succinct. Which doesn't serve well in terms of effective communication, especially when it comes to conversations like this where it's a "first impression" of someone who is not familiar with me or my overall "vibe". And vice versa.

                                Until this article of Tylers, I've never put much thought into "blackface" (but I've not been at any social gatherings where one chose that option either). It seems juvenile, but I would not have thought of it as in-your-face offensive.

                                you're collapsing distinct cultures, and in doing so, you're asserting your power over them.

                                Interesting. Would the person wearing the costume have even a fleeting thought that they were asserting such a power? I'd have a hard time calling them a dickwad if they meant no offense to begin with.

                                I've never thought of my skin color has increasing or decreasing my level of influence. I certainly have no intention of being offensive or "not getting it" - but I remain a tad puzzled.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.16 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:37 PM EST
                                Mark Fettig

                                I wasn't going to comment, but almost feel like I have to - when a white does the blackface, and dresses a certain way, there are reasons to go, "Oh My!"

                                When he is depicting certain traits which us 'pig'mentally defunct sectors find humorous, I find it not only to be humorous, but I also find it to be a complimentary view, as opposed to a man with a gun and a crack pipe, which would be offensive to the many who have never done crack, or robbed someone - not all pirates were one-legged and missing an eye, but hey, there aren't too many pirates these days who'll complain.

                                I think role reversal is an important part of overcoming stereotypes - it gives one side a way to express, and the other side a chance to reflect on the image portrayed - you know damned well there's a black man somewhere going, "Hey Mo-fo! That's my Gold chain!" while his friends laugh their ass off when the comparison hits home.

                                I have for a long time thought it would be a damned good idea to have a radio talk show between a white man who sounds black, and a black man with a white perspective, and an audience who had no clue - now tell me, what would the world think when the white man trashed stereotypical whites, and the black man trashing stereotypical blacks - it would be one of those shows which would shock many, but then bring down the house (no stereotypes intended) - I'd think there would be many people trying to excuse their own prejudicial judgments, which, to me, is almost how the rants of the Black/white face sounds.

                                I lived in North Little Rock in 1972, my family was one of maybe twenty there who were white, but we weren't disrespected, although my older brother learned quick to be careful when he eanie-meanied the remaining two unpicked members (he was always picked to count out the teams for the Saturday morning games - I still remember the fear in his eyes when he got to the point in that where he needed to quickly find a replacement for what would be getting caught by the toe...

                                I hope this sets to the mind a grin or two - in '94, I dressed in blackface on Halloween, and went to a Hillbilly-filled bar in southern Missouri with my future wife. I almost got shot by a drunk white-trash local woman, who was too drunk to know the difference by the time I showed up...go figure!

                                • 1 vote
                                #28.17 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:11 PM EST
                                jfxgillis

                                Feronia:

                                Would the person wearing the costume have even a fleeting thought that they were asserting such a power?

                                That would support rather than weaken tyler's argument. Unstated, unacknowledged and unrecognized stereotypes are orders of magnitude more pernicious and powerful.

                                That's one of the reasons why members of a negatively stereotyped group can get away with using it for instructional, humorous or other effect whereas non-members are likely to face rebuke.

                                • 8 votes
                                #28.18 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:23 PM EST
                                PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                tyler

                                It would seem to me that if a person is truly comfortable within their religion/spirituality (or skin tone) someone dressing up at Halloween would not be offensive.

                                Should have responded to this first. [Work!] This is garbage, Pat N. Smearing everyone who takes exception to blackface as having some problem with their own skin color is not an argument I'm going to accept.

                                Another popular costume at Halloween is Hitler.

                                What? Where?

                                Far more "offensive" than blackface, in my book. Yet I don't hear anyone saying "Don't wear a Hitler costume. You may offend a Jew."

                                I'll say it. Don't wear a Hitler costume without some serious modifications.

                                But you could ask Prince Harry and Japanese retailer Don Quijote about that.

                                ...

                                If the teens were dressed as blacks, had metal collars around each others necks, had faux whip marks on their backs and balls chained to their ankles...then you might have a case.

                                But you just said:

                                But by the same token, minstrel shows ended long ago. That chaper in life has closed and we have become wise to the repercussions of it.

                                Haven't we become wise to the repercussions of slavery, too? So why aren't you okay with people dressing up as slaves, by the closed-chapter rhetoric? Hell, anything in the past is fair game that way. Go as Emmett Till. People totally learned from that.

                                [Needless to say, I don't agree with that at all.]

                                But now that I know it's supposed to be offensive, I'll try to remeber to be offended next Halloween when I see someone using a wheelchair as a prop. Can someone remind me, please?

                                If someone went as 'a cripple' for Halloween...that would be on the same level as blackface for me. That's messed up. Seriously? You're in a wheelchair [correct me if I'm wrong], and you'd be down with someone going as 'a cripple' - just them in a wheelchair?

                                Sorry for double-dutching through your separate thread, spiffie and .Feronia, it's really interesting.

                                • 13 votes
                                #28.20 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:52 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                That would support rather than weaken tyler's argument. Unstated, unacknowledged and unrecognized stereotypes are orders of magnitude more pernicious and powerful.

                                Not worried about weakening Tyler's argument, I respect that he's sincere and thoughtful.

                                I see a difference between an action born of innocence vs. purposeful derision via stereotype. I just do. Based on Tyler's article, I certainly would do a double-take should I ever see it again - but whatever happened to "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"?

                                • 5 votes
                                #28.21 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:02 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                I see a difference between an action born of innocence vs. purposeful derision via stereotype. I just do.

                                An injustice born of ignorance is still an injustice, even though ignorance may be a mitigating factor. Wheaton's Law cuts both ways, of course, and if you think someone is perpetrating an offensive stereotype out of mere ignorance, education is called for, not necessarily outrage.

                                • 5 votes
                                #28.22 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:08 PM EST
                                jfxgillis

                                Feronia:

                                I see a difference between an action born of innocence vs. purposeful derision via stereotype

                                I don't dispute that possibility, even probability, but it really has no bearing on the general point tyler's making. You can only make that call in the specific instance.

                                whatever happened to "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"?

                                That's hard to figure when it's not flattering.

                                • 7 votes
                                #28.23 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:21 PM EST
                                magz

                                I see a difference between an action born of innocence (?) vs. purposeful derision via stereotype (sic)

                                That is so obtuse I must respond as well. The context is pretty obvious. If you were "innocent" enough to not have any knowledge of racism and slavery, then you are Rip Van Winkle and you just woke up from a 200 year nap. To claim innocence, or should I say, feign innocence of such, in this day and age, is simply mind boggling.

                                • 6 votes
                                #28.24 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:46 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                if you think someone is perpetrating an offensive stereotype out of mere ignorance, education is called for, not necessarily outrage.

                                Fair enough.

                                That's hard to figure when it's not flattering.

                                The presence or lack of such a perception would be in the eye of the beholder.

                                Very enlightening topic. And odd. Ever have one of those "OMG" moments when you wonder if you've said/done or not said/done something that could've been interpreted as totally heartless in retrospect? This specific scenario has never played out in my circles - social or otherwise, "matière en l'absence."

                                Pleasure e-conversing with you both (and thanks to you too, Tyler). Hope to catch up with you again later, here or elsewhere. Have to go run a couple of errands.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.25 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:00 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                If you were "innocent" enough to not have any knowledge of racism and slavery, then you are Rip Van Winkle and you just woke up from a 200 year nap. To claim innocence, or should I say, feign innocence of such, in this day and age, is simply mind boggling.

                                Errand delayed slightly. Magz, not everyone looks at every action through the lens of the darkest portion of the history involved. Heretofore, I would have perceived a goofball college kid painting his face to appear as a "rapper" as simply juvenile. While I still see it as juvenile, I can see from someone else's perspective that being juvenile is perceived far secondary to something deemed more important.

                                Your patronizing and unwelcome remark is nothing more than just that.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.26 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:10 PM EST
                                spiffie

                                This specific scenario has never played out in my circles - social or otherwise, "matière en l'absence."

                                I was actually thinking, immediately after my last comment, about how I discovered today that a coworker had never seen A Christmas Story. Not only had he never seen that, but he hadn't seenScrooged, despite being an avowed fan of Bill Murray. I find missing both to be quite boggling, but despite how much media bombards us on a daily basis, I suppose it's not surprising that we fail to catch everything.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.27 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:36 PM EST
                                magz

                                What you see as juvenile I see as inappropriate and insulting. That you mistake my incredulousness over your statement as patronizing is simply confrontational. That you excuse this college student's behavior as goofball and not an extension "of a dark portion of the history involved" cannot, frankly, be reconciled in the context of higher education.

                                • 4 votes
                                #28.28 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:39 PM EST
                                .Feronia

                                despite how much media bombards us on a daily basis, I suppose it's not surprising that we fail to catch everything.

                                True enough. Life is, by nature, a course through a myriad of distractions. Given my own lifestyle and involvements, I've become a bit detached from "all things cultural." I can only be interested and involved in so many things, which leaves me a bit clueless in other arenas. Someone brought up Linkin Park this year, and I actually said "where's that?"

                                What you see as juvenile I see as inappropriate and insulting.

                                Obviously. I viewed your "incredulousness" as insulting and worded in a format meant to be so vs. furthering conversation and understanding. If it was not so, my bad. I read this article and the comments for quite a while before entering the discussion. I didn't have to. But you know what? I wanted to understand another point of view. To do that, I state where my mind is and ask questions.

                                There are many topics where I feel I have observed both sides of a position, and feel comfortable having staked my place where I am. This topic is not one of them, hence my entering into the conversation.

                                I feel I have gained something from having done so. While I prefer to live in today, with an understanding of my history, I refuse to drag that history into my "today" full bore - because it doesn't further my goals. Someone else may feel differently, and that's ok. I refuse to play "my history is more tragic than yours, so I deserve xyz." On the other hand, I have no intention of being boorish on this topic. I am here to understand. When I feel someone adds to that understanding in a meaningful way, I continue the conversation. When I feel someone is here to play nothing more than "duh" - the conversation is over.

                                And in this case that would be a pity.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.29 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:56 PM EST
                                Pat N

                                If someone went as 'a cripple' for Halloween...that would be on the same level as blackface for me. That's messed up. Seriously? You're in a wheelchair [correct me if I'm wrong], and you'd be down with someone going as 'a cripple' - just them in a wheelchair?

                                I am indeed. Last year, I was at a Halloween party made up of a group of us the get together for drinks, appetizers and friendly political debate a couple times a month. Not that it really matters, but both sides of the political spectrum are in this group. One of the individuals came in a wheelchair, had on a helmet and proclaimed himself the 'crippled/retarded conservative'. I was surprised by his choice of costume. But not offended. I called him a smart ass and that was pretty much the extent of it.

                                Here's the thing, Tyler...This article is cool in the fact that I learned a little more about minstrel show history. But when kids do something like this...and we react...aren't we just giving the other person the reaction they hoped to get in the first place?

                                There are som many people that have forgotten the old cliche: "Choose your battles wisely." As a result, I seriously can't think of a costume that would be completely unoffensive to people. Clown? Clowns/jesters were the poverty stricken whose duty was to entertain the rich. Fairy or elf? Offends the sensibilities of the uber-religious because its 'fantasy'. Vampire? Could be offensive to Romanians. Rambo? Offensive to military and vets. Witch Doctor? I won't even go there.

                                Is the answer eliminating costumes at halloween all together? That way we don't risk upsetting someone else. Or is the answer suggesting people choose their battles wisely?

                                If someone is being downright hateful about disabilities, that's a fight I'll take up. You saw it with your own eyes in that thread with a person of the opposite political persuasion of me that was referring to me as an ugly crippled bitch, queen of the wheelie machine, and should he throw me over his shoulder to carry me to my pity party, or do they make a chair for that.

                                That's malicious intent. I have a hard time seeing malicious intent in a halloween costume. Could someone be doing it for shock value? Sure. But there's a big difference between trying to shock someone and being malicious.

                                • 9 votes
                                #28.30 - Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:01 AM EST
                                tyler

                                Here's the thing, Tyler...This article is cool in the fact that I learned a little more about minstrel show history. But when kids do something like this...and we react...aren't we just giving the other person the reaction they hoped to get in the first place?

                                You think the kid was looking to get a blog post out of it? I dunno. Maybe I should friend him and ask him - although at this point he'd probably be freaked out!

                                One of the individuals came in a wheelchair, had on a helmet and proclaimed himself the 'crippled/retarded conservative'.

                                That's dumb and I don't get it - how is that funny? - but it isn't the equivalent of what I proposed - going as a cripple.

                                If someone is being downright hateful about disabilities, that's a fight I'll take up.

                                I think going as a cripple would be equivalent to going in blackface and is downright hateful.

                                Clown? Clowns/jesters were the poverty stricken whose duty was to entertain the rich.

                                Also, creepy.

                                I think some common inoffensive costumes are: celebrity, superhero, fantasy creature, zombie/undead [soooo many zombies in this area].

                                But I don't think this is a slippery slope argument. I'm anti-race-donning. Pretty simple. It would take a lot of persuasion for me to find 'vampire' offensive. [Lame, not so much.]

                                • 8 votes
                                #28.31 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:08 PM EST
                                Pat N

                                You think the kid was looking to get a blog post out of it?

                                Maybe not a blog post, specifically. But some kind of reaction.

                                I dunno. Maybe I should friend him and ask him - although at this point he'd probably be freaked out!

                                That would actually be kind of funny.

                                That's dumb and I don't get it - how is that funny?

                                In his mind, conservatives were 'crippled' by the 2008 election and they've always been 'retarded'.

                                • 3 votes
                                #28.32 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:39 PM EST
                                tyler

                                In his mind, conservatives were 'crippled' by the 2008 election and they've always been 'retarded'.

                                Don't tell him about Newsvine. Sheesh. Couldn't he have gone as a wounded elephant? That would be funnier.

                                • 9 votes
                                #28.33 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:46 PM EST
                                magz

                                No tyler. A flatulent elephant would be much funnier.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.34 - Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:54 PM EST
                                angelaisafan

                                Does little girls dressing up as witches at Halloween "offend" you? I'm thinking not. It would seem to me that if a person is truly comfortable within their religion/spirituality (or skin tone) someone dressing up at Halloween would not be offensive. And I have yet to hear of a Wiccan being offended by little green-skinned witches running around one night a year.

                                You seem to believe green skin color is a valid human skin color analogy. LOL

                                • 1 vote
                                #28.35 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 10:06 AM EST
                                Pat N

                                You seem to have missed the entire point of my post.

                                • 4 votes
                                #28.36 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 11:30 PM EST
                                angelaisafan

                                You seem to have missed the entire point of my post.

                                Present a summary of the history of populations of human beings with green skin color. Have at it!

                                • 1 vote
                                #28.37 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:24 AM EST
                                Pat N

                                Yep. You definately missed the thrust of my post. It's this thing called an "analogy". I know, I know...interesting concept.

                                I normally consider you a fairly astute individual. So I'm rather shocked that it flew right over your head that I was making a religious reference. Not a skin color based one.

                                Allow me to put it into terms that you may understand:

                                Wiccans...who normally refer to themselves as Witches...are comfortable enough with who they are and their believe system, that they are not offended by children running around at Halloween dressed as the stereotypical witch. A get-up that may or may not include...(GASP!!!) green skin.

                                Would it make you feel better if I said: "....And I have yet to hear of a Wiccan being offended by children running around in pointy hats with blacked out teeth one night a year.

                                • 5 votes
                                #28.38 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 10:02 AM EST
                                PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                Dubbya R

                                oy...it's not easy being green metaphorical.

                                • 2 votes
                                #28.40 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 11:55 AM EST
                                Pat N

                                Not taking the bait...nope. not gonna do it. ☺

                                • 4 votes
                                #28.41 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 12:50 PM EST
                                PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                Reply
                                Darrah, Greenville, SC

                                I can't understand why so many people don't get it.

                                It's not necessarily about dressing up in a particular kind of costume. It's about going so far as to put makeup on to look like a person of color, including Indians!

                                • 5 votes
                                Reply#29 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:00 PM EST
                                Star3

                                I am part native American, and have no problem with anyone who dresses or paints themselves to look like one, as long as the intent is not to insult. I am, also, (mostly) German, Irish and English, but 100% American born and bred, so should I feel insulted when someone mocks in a German or heavy English accent, or Irish brogue? People are becoming much too sensitive, or pretending to be. Where is the sense of humor, not to mention common sense concerning under what circumstances to draw the line? There is political correctness, then there is ridiculous.

                                • 13 votes
                                #29.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:30 PM EST
                                Soosalah

                                Exactly, star.

                                Now, in the case of the college students having a party off-campus and dressing in black-face to act as contestants on the show, Survivor, that's pretty sick, in my opinion. It was the show where they pitted minorites against Whites.

                                That's completely different than what this one person was trying to accomplish, in my opinion.

                                • 2 votes
                                #29.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:45 AM EST
                                magz

                                I am part native American, and have no problem with anyone who dresses or paints themselves to look like one...I am, also, (mostly) German, Irish and English, but 100% American...

                                It would help if you could make up your mind about who you really are.

                                • 3 votes
                                #29.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:07 AM EST
                                PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                Dennis P McCann

                                Hey, how about this... I'm 100% Irish, and 100% American.

                                Yep. 200%.

                                • 7 votes
                                #29.5 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:18 AM EST
                                magz

                                PNV, I am quite taken aback by your accusation that I am a purest based on my post about star's assertion that being part Native American somehow confers weight to his argument that Native Americans should not be upset about humorous costumes that feature them, the innocence of intent notwithstanding.

                                It would have been enough for me that he had prefaced his assertion based on him being 100% American.

                                BTW, let's avoid ugliness by not referencing each other's parentage unless asked.

                                • 3 votes
                                #29.6 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:23 AM EST
                                Pat N

                                Yep. 200%

                                200%? I love ya, buddy...but if there's 200% of you, you might wanna make a phone call to Weight Watchers. ☺

                                • 7 votes
                                #29.7 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:59 PM EST
                                mightyj

                                Now, in the case of the college students having a party off-campus and dressing in black-face to act as contestants on the show, Survivor, that's pretty sick, in my opinion

                                sigh..... Perhaps our country is not ready to let the racial BS of the past go. With any luck the passage of time will further heal those wounds and younger generations that were not alive to give offense won't need political opinion to tell them what is correct.

                                Until then let the eggshells fall where they may. JJ

                                The rest of my opinion is available but is a bit much to present here.

                                • 1 vote
                                #29.8 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:04 PM EST
                                Star3

                                Mazg, post #26.3: Who would it be "helpful" to? The only one who needs to know who I "really" am is me, and I already know. Thanks, Soosalah & Pastnike Vet.

                                • 1 vote
                                #29.9 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:28 PM EST
                                magz

                                The only one who needs to know who I "really" am is me...

                                Indeed.

                                  #29.10 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:35 PM EST
                                  Star3

                                  Yes-----indeed.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #29.11 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:39 PM EST
                                  PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                  magz

                                  Then no worries PNV.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #29.13 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:29 PM EST
                                  PastNikeVet-906575Deleted
                                  Reply
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